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  • A Greater Canid Breed

    So I wanted to pull this into itsown little thread because I like the idea of trying to combine a greater Canid Breed like Bastet and applying it to Canids, so we have Garou, Nuwisha, Kitsune potentially the same "Breed" along with a variety of others.

    I don't want to call the Breed Garou. I want to leave Garou potentially open for "C. Lupus" alone but its not a hill I'm going to die on.

    So the big issue is Bastet for example their Tribes are strictly Breed based. A Lynx cannot be a Khan. But Garou tribes WHILE generally having some hertege basis aren't as strictly limited. So in combining the two do we limit what a "garou" can be?

    If Kitsune are the mystic tribe do there need to be Uktena? Or can you be a Fox Glasswalker? It seems excessive for there to be 13 tribes of wolves.. 1 tribe of foxes and 1 tribe of Coyotes so something needs to give..

  • #2
    "Lynx can't be a Khan," is true, but human kinfolk blur lines since a Qualmi kin can mate with a Pumonca and have a child of mixed heritage between different Bastet Tribes.

    It's even less of a problem for the canines because we have more examples of naturally occurring hybrids. Coyotes and wolves will interbreed on their own, and their offspring are not sterile.

    Canids also have more overlapping territories than Felids do, so human kin are even more likely to have a mix of lineages in them.

    13 Tribes of wolves is already too big, even without this sort of thing. WtA could use collapsing Tribes anyway, and a few Tribes should be camps (and thus could include any canid lineages).

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      "Lynx can't be a Khan," is true, but human kinfolk blur lines since a Qualmi kin can mate with a Pumonca and have a child of mixed heritage between different Bastet Tribes.

      It's even less of a problem for the canines because we have more examples of naturally occurring hybrids. Coyotes and wolves will interbreed on their own, and their offspring are not sterile.

      Canids also have more overlapping territories than Felids do, so human kin are even more likely to have a mix of lineages in them.

      13 Tribes of wolves is already too big, even without this sort of thing. WtA could use collapsing Tribes anyway, and a few Tribes should be camps (and thus could include any canid lineages).
      Red Talons Kitsune as the aggressive, anti-human tricksters?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        "Lynx can't be a Khan," is true, but human kinfolk blur lines since a Qualmi kin can mate with a Pumonca and have a child of mixed heritage between different Bastet Tribes.

        It's even less of a problem for the canines because we have more examples of naturally occurring hybrids. Coyotes and wolves will interbreed on their own, and their offspring are not sterile.

        Canids also have more overlapping territories than Felids do, so human kin are even more likely to have a mix of lineages in them.

        13 Tribes of wolves is already too big, even without this sort of thing. WtA could use collapsing Tribes anyway, and a few Tribes should be camps (and thus could include any canid lineages).

        What I mean is Give or Take various backgrounds a Homid Garou can join just about any tribe, same with a Lupus or Metis. As is currently.

        But if you turn into a Lynx you can never be a Khan.

        How should Canid tribes be divided? What you turn into? what Human culture you ascribe to? What philosophies?

        Or maybe you have a Breed Only tribes and philsophies tribes? Like Red Talons are the "Wolf Tribe" you can't be a fox or a Coyote, or wild Dog or etc. KItsune are the Fox Tribe you can't be other breeds etc. But Glasswalkers might be "You like humans!" Or maybe there should be a couple fox tribes, a Couple wolf tribes, a Couple Coyote tribes etc?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
          Red Talons Kitsune as the aggressive, anti-human tricksters?
          I'm... not a fan of the Red Talons as written, and less so in this sort of set up. Though "Red Talon" as short hand for a cross-Tribal camp that is generally anti-human, having malicious tricksters among them would certainly make sense.


          Originally posted by Lian View Post
          How should Canid tribes be divided?
          I think it works well enough for pretty much all the other diverse Fera to have the Tribes based on broad groups within the larger general clade. Adding in cross-tribal Camps as a primary social grouping instead of an optional side thing ensures most of the core concepts for WtA are still represented.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

            I'm... not a fan of the Red Talons as written, and less so in this sort of set up. Though "Red Talon" as short hand for a cross-Tribal camp that is generally anti-human, having malicious tricksters among them would certainly make sense.




            I think it works well enough for pretty much all the other diverse Fera to have the Tribes based on broad groups within the larger general clade. Adding in cross-tribal Camps as a primary social grouping instead of an optional side thing ensures most of the core concepts for WtA are still represented.
            Cross Tribal Camps are a Good idea, maybe Red Talons, Glasswalkers, Children of Gaia.. and Uktena could be taken up by this?

            Should there still be human ethnic tribes though?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Lian View Post

              Should there still be human ethnic tribes though?

              Personally I don't see why not, especially if you take the word "ethnic" in a more sociological standpoint then how most Americans wield it. Make it the result of strong cultural ties, and not so much about blood or decent. People often forget for example that for the Celts, and Slavs it was more about language and custom then it was about ancestry. In this sense of the word I'm entirely for the concept of human ethnicities leaving a strong mark on some of the tribes like the Wendigo, Fenrir, and Fianna. Maybe don't make it about "well I'm a quarter Irish, a quarter German, quarter Polish and quarter Seneca, what am I?" and more about what cultural ties the groups celebrate and uphold. That's how I read a lot of Revised and W20 anyway.

              This makes more sense for me when you take into account out traditional, and clannish the Garou can be for most of their history. The problem is I think that too many people don't really think about how these cultural traits in the tribes could manifest and instead keep making your blonde haired blue eyed angry Fenrir, your drunk pick up artist Fianna and your angry racist Native wearing nothing but buckskin and turquoise.

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              • #8
                The Silver Fangs and the Bone Gnawers are definitely good as cross-Tribal camps as well (The Fangs already have seven internal Houses, the Gnawers don't link to any specific group of humans and even are reputed to not be so picky about just trying with wolves anyway).

                And as CeltSPZ notes, it really depends on how you do "ethnic." The Garou Tribes aren't really ethnic as they were built around specific character cliches, but are all generally far more broad than what one could say is a single ethnic group (at least by modern times), while making it clunky and weird in their obsessions with bloodlines and families. This whole concept is a chance to rebuild this stuff from the ground up to be more logical.

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                • #9
                  Cross tribal camps: Silver Fangs, Maybe Shadow Lords?, Children of Gaia, Glasswalkers, Red Talons, Bonegnawers maybe Uktena? more? Less?

                  Breed Tribes: Kitsune, Nuwisha, "Garou", Silent Striders(Jackals), Bunyip(wild dogs, especially Dingos). More? Less?

                  Ethnic tribes: Hakken, Fianna, Fenrir, Wendigo.. feels incomplete.


                  Should ethnic tribes be limited to a particular breed? LIke there might be a Coyote, Wolf, and Fox Ethnically native tribe?

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                  • #10
                    I don't like the idea of ethnic tribes being limited by breed. That brings back the idea of "blood" and not culture. Also I don't see why Striders can't be an 'ethnic' tribe as well. You're highlighting the jackals sure, but these are also a nomadic people who carry chunks of Egyptian culture (no matter how accurate) with a emphasis on diaspora. This is a huge basis for an ethnic tribe, that expands past the concept of jackals. They may have jackals with them, but cannon also highlights the Etheopian wolf as a major kinfolk source (granted Rage CCG with Walks with Might's art may have impacted me more then it should?). For me the Striders would be no more of a breed tribe then the Red Talons would be.

                    On that note I'd also put the Furies in on "Ethnic" tribes. Sure they are all female and this could easily make them a cross tribal camp. However for me, I'd make them an matriarchal ethnic tribe with strong Mediterranean or Balkan influences (but not limited to, as they could be influenced by more cultures as their range expanded).

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                      I'm... not a fan of the Red Talons as written, and less so in this sort of set up. Though "Red Talon" as short hand for a cross-Tribal camp that is generally anti-human, having malicious tricksters among them would certainly make sense.
                      I had assumed that, if used, they would have to be a cross-tribal camp in this case .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CeltSPZ View Post
                        I don't like the idea of ethnic tribes being limited by breed. That brings back the idea of "blood" and not culture. Also I don't see why Striders can't be an 'ethnic' tribe as well. You're highlighting the jackals sure, but these are also a nomadic people who carry chunks of Egyptian culture (no matter how accurate) with a emphasis on diaspora. This is a huge basis for an ethnic tribe, that expands past the concept of jackals. They may have jackals with them, but cannon also highlights the Etheopian wolf as a major kinfolk source (granted Rage CCG with Walks with Might's art may have impacted me more then it should?). For me the Striders would be no more of a breed tribe then the Red Talons would be.

                        On that note I'd also put the Furies in on "Ethnic" tribes. Sure they are all female and this could easily make them a cross tribal camp. However for me, I'd make them an matriarchal ethnic tribe with strong Mediterranean or Balkan influences (but not limited to, as they could be influenced by more cultures as their range expanded).

                        what makes an ethnic tribe not a Cross tribe cultural camp? IT seems like "Focuses on a particular human culture" isn't any different than "focuses on Nobility" or "rejects humanity"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post


                          what makes an ethnic tribe not a Cross tribe cultural camp? IT seems like "Focuses on a particular human culture" isn't any different than "focuses on Nobility" or "rejects humanity"

                          Well when you start to say that an ethnic tribe is no different from a cross tribe camp....then what's the point of tribes? what do you mean when you say tribe? If you say "Focuses on Nobility" or "rejects humanity" is as cross tribal as "Celtic", "Germanic" or "diasporic Egyptian", then what is your basis for tribe at all? If its to be more in line with Mokole Varna then that's a totally definition of how I'm dealing with it. For me just because you turn into a wolf or a coyote or a jackal isn't a lot to base your tribe (a cultural commonality) off of vs concepts like the ethnic tribes. Many people tie "Ethnicity" up with blood. The sociological explanation however ties ethnicity with culture, its behaviors and values. For ethnicities to survive set traites need to be taught and learned, not the matter of genetic markers being passed on. Granted I'll admit to having a strong bias as someone who's had a stepfather adopt and raise him. They aren't my family by blood, but blood be damned they are my family.

                          I hope I'm explaining myself here, its a discussion that would be easier in person and I hope to be understood. I worry my ability to type it all is messing with everything.

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                          • #14
                            I am honestly not sure how splats should be hammered out in a potentially all canid breed so I'm trying a few different angles based on where the discussion goes.

                            Mokole put no real impotance on what you turn into vs where you are(with the exception of AO)

                            Bastet put importance on what you become.

                            I personally prefer the Bastet side of things I like that being a Lynx matters spiritually to be different than a Tiger even if they are both connected. I don't think what you turn into should be a purely a visual choice, your warrior Fox SHOULD be different from your Warrior Wolf. Maybe Putting Kitsune in has always been the step too far.. maybe it should just be WOlves, Jackal, Dingos...

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                            • #15
                              One question comes, then, what of dogs? I don't mean extremely inbred breeds, but the fact that wolfdogs, dingo and pariah dogs technically are considered 'wild' enough to breed garou. So where does the line between a domestic dog vs a garou-fitting one go?


                              My gallery.

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