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Fenris Bite heads off, or doesn't?

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  • Fenris Bite heads off, or doesn't?

    Hello all again, I would like to make a question on how Fenris Bite Gift works.

    The system description indicates that after the Rage expediture and a successful Strength + Primal-Urge roll the bite, if it makes contact, will affect one of the enemy's limbs, which means that you can hit limbs without making called shots and without increased difficulty. But can you name a head as limb? What about creatures with short extermities, or no extermities, or long necks? Can the gift be used to do direct damage to an opponent, it could in an older version, but can that still be a case ?

    Thank you.

  • #2
    I wouldn't let it target the head from the phrasing of the Gift. The head isn't generically classified as a limb, and the Gift is all about crippling opponents, not outright killing them (though it might do that anyway).

    If the creature doesn't have something to mangle... I'd probably say it can't be activated on them and spare the character the Rage point, but the bonus damage is nice anyway so I'd let it slide if the player really wants it (compared to other Gifts they'd probably have as an Elder). It doesn't say the bonus damage doesn't happen if there's no limb to target.

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    • #3
      Can you mangle a giraffe's neck?
      Also that gift is awkward since garou can magle easily a limb with the use of lesser rank bite enhancing gifts, Can this gift really make the difference? I mean, even Razor Claws is more powerful than Fenris Bite.
      Last edited by Story Letter; 10-22-2018, 10:09 AM.

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      • #4
        IMHO Dont forget mate, Gifts are... gifts, from the spirits, and the Garou (and all the other fera) are higly spiritual (well in theory) - every Gift is a sacred gift from the spirits themselves (okay, some times the spirits can be a bit... hard when it comes to teaching) and usually they teach you after you proven you are worthy (or payed them of)
        Its more about flavor and the legend of great Fenrir, than bite bite bite, coool powez. With this gift, you can recall the great and mighty Fenrir's deed, be - in a certain point of view - like Him, the Patron of the most awesome Garou Tribe evar (tm) , and bite even the Wyrm's hand off!
        Its about symbolism, story and spiritual connection with your Patron totem I think, not just a cool power (at this Rank, you already have shitload of them anyway.)
        Last edited by Shadeprowler; 10-22-2018, 10:42 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
          Can you mangle a giraffe's neck?
          Is the neck a limb? By common usage, no.... so no.

          It also seems entirely against the spirit of the Gift to use it to insta-kill targets with a good roll by targeting non-torso parts of the body that would logically result in incapacitation or death with the Gift's powers.

          Also that gift is awkward since garou can magle easily a limb with the use of lesser rank bite enhancing gifts, Can this gift really make the difference? I mean, even Razor Claws is more powerful than Fenris Bite.
          What's the basis for all this? I mean, a Garou can easily mangle the limbs of weaker opponents with a called shot and a good roll, sure. Fenris Bite works on far tougher things in a fashion that's harder to avoid. The lack of soaking it's primary effect is a big point here.

          Razor Claws doesn't hold a candle to Fenris Bite. All Razor Claws does is make claw attacks on par with a Hispo's natural biting stats.

          Most of the bite enhancing Gifts would also stack with Fenris Bite on top of it.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            Razor Claws doesn't hold a candle to Fenris Bite. All Razor Claws does is make claw attacks on par with a Hispo's natural biting stats.
            .
            Razor Claws = 1 Rage and one full turn = effect claw attacks are at difficulty 5 and do strength + 4 damage. Way more powerful than hispo bite.
            Fenris Bite = 1 Rage + Stamina + Primal urge difficulty opponent's stamina + 3 for a most likely permanent difficulty 10 to activate it, reflexice attivation = difficulty 5 to attack for normal bite +3 auto non soakable damage and crippling effect.

            Razor Claws is more steady with only disadvantage possible bad luck on a damage roll.
            Fenris Bite has a huge difficulty to use an opponent's stamina +3 makes it very risky to use, you need a werewolf with stamina 1 in homid to use it at difficulty 7, and this is a minimal difficulty against the feather class Garou, yup if it succeeds it can cripple enemies with impossible toughness, but should this be the case of a Rank 5 Gift ?

            Just wondering.

            Also, thank you all for participating

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
              Razor Claws = 1 Rage and one full turn = effect claw attacks are at difficulty 5 and do strength + 4 damage.
              Um, Razor Claws only adds 2 damage dice, not 4, so that might be part of the problem. Bites are already at difficulty 5, and Hispo does +1 damage for free on bites (not to mention has higher Dexterity as well compared to Homid/Glabro/Crinos).

              Fenris Bite = 1 Rage + Stamina + Primal urge difficulty opponent's stamina + 3 for a most likely permanent difficulty 10 to activate it...
              How many Stamina 7 characters are you fighting? Gifts generally key off of base values, not form modified ones, so you're probably facing difficulty 8 unless you're fighting particularly tough spirits, or elder vampires, or whatever can have a base Stamina that high.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                Um, Razor Claws only adds 2 damage dice, not 4, so that might be part of the problem. Bites are already at difficulty 5, and Hispo does +1 damage for free on bites (not to mention has higher Dexterity as well compared to Homid/Glabro/Crinos).


                Crinos claws do +2 on their own +2 from Razor Claws = +4, and has +1 strength over hispo.
                Hispo +1 Dex +2 bite damage < Crinos +1 Strength +2 claw damage +2 Razor Claws, they are both at diff 5 to hit and Razor Claws are Fenrir Tribal Gift.



                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                How many Stamina 7 characters are you fighting? Gifts generally key off of base values, not form modified ones, so you're probably facing difficulty 8 unless you're fighting particularly tough spirits, or elder vampires, or whatever can have a base Stamina that high.
                If you play it that way, if you use form bonuses things are completely different, Black Spirals, Skull Pigs, Fomoris with Mega Attribute, monster crocodiles in the sewers. Elder Gifts are not for normal enemies, they are to stand up to the Rank they represent. I mean why to use this gift with the possibility of failure or botch just to maim a limb, which can kill a normal enemy, but if you are already Elder you are past fighting ''normal'' enemies and if you end up to resort to lower rank combat gifts that are less risky to use why to take Fenris Bite ? The only use it has its to cripple enemies they are extremely difficult to damage, like realy huge wyrm monsters. You can always use it to teach manners to spoiled cubs, oops its difficulty 9 (stamina 6 in crinos) ..... good luck.

                It may help to fight against malphean horrors, but as I mentioned its risky and you have to use it with every bite attack you do, rolling time and again.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
                  Hispo +1 Dex +2 bite damage < Crinos +1 Strength +2 claw damage +2 Razor Claws, they are both at diff 5 to hit and Razor Claws are Fenrir Tribal Gift.
                  Yeah, using a Gift plus the best form for it comes out to being slightly ahead of what you can do for free in Hispo (also, you know, not having to waste a turn activating it).

                  If you play it that way, if you use form bonuses things are completely different,...
                  Well.. don't play a stupid way? If you apply form bonuses to Gifts... a ton of Gifts become worthless or at least useless depending on your form (Manipulation and Appearance based Gifts get pretty shitty pretty fast).

                  If you're presented with two ways to interpret the rules, and one results in bad results (makes some Gifts extremely potent, and others near worthless), and another doesn't do that? Use the second one. Otherwise you're just making the game unfun for yourself for no reason.

                  The Gifts were written to assume you don't apply form bonuses to these things (that was made clear back in Revised, and they didn't significantly change things in W20 even if they didn't repeat that for clarity. So if you insist on applying them, you're going to get weird results, but it's not because Fenris Bite is a bad Gift.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    Yeah, using a Gift plus the best form for it comes out to being slightly ahead of what you can do for free in Hispo (also, you know, not having to waste a turn activating it).


                    Well since you asked a few posts above. Also Gift disadvantage has been mentioned.

                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    Well.. don't play a stupid way?

                    Be careful with expressions please.


                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    If you apply form bonuses to Gifts... a ton of Gifts become worthless or at least useless depending on your form.

                    If you're presented with two ways to interpret the rules, and one results in bad results (makes some Gifts extremely potent, and others near worthless), and another doesn't do that? Use the second one. Otherwise you're just making the game unfun for yourself for no reason.

                    The Gifts were written to assume you don't apply form bonuses to these things (that was made clear back in Revised, and they didn't significantly change things in W20 even if they didn't repeat that for clarity. So if you insist on applying them, you're going to get weird results, but it's not because Fenris Bite is a bad Gift.
                    That's debatable.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
                      Crinos claws do +2 on their own +2 from Razor Claws = +4, and has +1 strength over hispo.
                      Hispo +1 Dex +2 bite damage < Crinos +1 Strength +2 claw damage +2 Razor Claws, they are both at diff 5 to hit and Razor Claws are Fenrir Tribal Gift.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                      Crinos claws do Str +1, as written at page 296 of the W20 manual or in the character sheet at its end, so with Razor Claws they're diff 5 dam +3. I see no specifications under the "crinos form" paragraph saying you should add 1 die to claw damage. Hispo bites are diff 5 dam +2, and Dex is generally more useful than Str.

                      So, I'd say overall that hitting with Razor Claws is still better for a number of reasons, but requires a gift and the activation round. The big difference though is that fighting in Crinos lets you trigger Delirium and give access to more combat maneuvers, not to mention that biting often means wrapping your mouth around some purulent, poisonous and acidic wyrmspawn.


                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      If you apply form bonuses to Gifts... a ton of Gifts become worthless or at least useless depending on your form (Manipulation and Appearance based Gifts get pretty shitty pretty fast).
                      It's specified that Manipulation and Appearance form modifiers do not apply to spirits or other garous, though. You simply won't have an easy time persuading a vampire as long as you growl with an homicide look in your eyes.

                      The Gifts were written to assume you don't apply form bonuses to these things (that was made clear back in Revised, and they didn't significantly change things in W20 even if they didn't repeat that for clarity. So if you insist on applying them, you're going to get weird results, but it's not because Fenris Bite is a bad Gift.
                      I wonder why wasn't this thing specified in the W20 manual, though. I was looking at the "might of Thor" GoF power and it would be extremely unbalanced if it allowed to double the total modified Crinos strength (12-18 +1 dice of aggravated damage? Cmon...). I'd have really liked some RaW errata on this.

                      EDIT: I'd say that the "Fenris Bite" does look quite underpowered for its level, though. Comparing it to Horde of Valhalla, Gift of the Spriggan, Luna's Avenger, Kiss of Helios... well, let's just say it doesn't look good.
                      Last edited by Maris Streck; 10-24-2018, 10:37 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
                        Well since you asked a few posts above. Also Gift disadvantage has been mentioned.
                        Technically, I didn't ask. I stated that your assertions seemed off, and you seem to equate "on par with" as "perfectly equal to" which isn't the same.

                        Be careful with expressions please.
                        OK, but that doesn't change the topic at hand. You're presented with two ways to handle the rules. One way throws Gift balance (which isn't great to start with) completely out of whack, and the other doesn't (or at least doesn't make it worse). Why pick the one that makes things worse?

                        That's debatable.
                        What's your debatable points on any of that?

                        Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                        Crinos claws do Str +1, as written at page 296 of the W20 manual or in the character sheet at its end, so with Razor Claws they're diff 5 dam +3.
                        Erm, my copy agrees with it being Str + 2 base in both of those places.

                        It's specified that Manipulation and Appearance form modifiers do not apply to spirits or other garous, though. You simply won't have an easy time persuading a vampire as long as you growl with an homicide look in your eyes.
                        Oddly, it only specifies that for Crinos.. in W20 for some strange reason.

                        Still, Gifts like Eye of the Cobra and Gorgon's Gaze (heck another Rank 5) don't make a lots of sense to be be impossible to use against anything but Garou and spirits while in Crinos.

                        There's no reason at all Jam Technology should be penalized if you're not in Homid.

                        I wonder why wasn't this thing specified in the W20 manual, though.
                        There's a lot of Revised errata that didn't get included despite copying the original Revised phrasing.

                        I'd say that the "Fenris Bite" does look quite underpowered for its level, though. Comparing it to Horde of Valhalla, Gift of the Spriggan, Luna's Avenger, Kiss of Helios... well, let's just say it doesn't look good.
                        My argument for it is that it ignores soak. I've seen Elder level characters that managed rather massive soak pools (I'm talking ~25 soak dice) by stacking Stamina, Fetish Armor, and Gifts. The ability to cripple limbs and do unsoakable (by anything) damage is extremely potent once characters can start actually getting soak high enough to compete with damage (since getting your damage dice pool through the roof is a lot easily a lot lower level).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                          EDIT: I'd say that the "Fenris Bite" does look quite underpowered for its level, though. Comparing it to Horde of Valhalla, Gift of the Spriggan, Luna's Avenger, Kiss of Helios... well, let's just say it doesn't look good.
                          Exactly that, thank you kind sir. Also W20 Character sheet states crinos claw does +2.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            My argument for it is that it ignores soak. I've seen Elder level characters that managed rather massive soak pools (I'm talking ~25 soak dice) by stacking Stamina, Fetish Armor, and Gifts. The ability to cripple limbs and do unsoakable (by anything) damage is extremely potent once characters can start actually getting soak high enough to compete with damage (since getting your damage dice pool through the roof is a lot easily a lot lower level).
                            That's the only aplication I am able to think of.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                              Erm, my copy agrees with it being Str + 2 base in both of those places.
                              That's weird. Which copy are you two looking at? Are those pdfs or hardback manuals? I also remember claw damage to be Str+1 even in Revised.

                              Oddly, it only specifies that for Crinos.. in W20 for some strange reason.
                              True, but I suppose it's meant to be applied to every appropriate situation. Using manipulation in your wolf form should not cut your dice pool if you're talking to other wolves, just to say one.
                              I think that it makes sense if gifts as Ultimate Argument of Logic or Persuasion were to be hampered by form modifiers; Jam Technology might not require that malus (you're persuading a spirit to break some tech and you have no other sentient opponent, I'd count it as "spirit"). I agree though that Gorgon's Gaze should apply appearance every time.

                              Either way, I'd leave the ST to decide whether a situation is appropriate or not.


                              My argument for it is that it ignores soak. I've seen Elder level characters that managed rather massive soak pools (I'm talking ~25 soak dice) by stacking Stamina, Fetish Armor, and Gifts. The ability to cripple limbs and do unsoakable (by anything) damage is extremely potent once characters can start actually getting soak high enough to compete with damage (since getting your damage dice pool through the roof is a lot easily a lot lower level).
                              True. The main obstacle is the activation roll, though, and it only becomes viable if you consider the "regular" unmodified stamina (no Fortitude for vampires, no garou form bonuses). Where is that written on Revised?

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