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Fenris Bite heads off, or doesn't?

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  • #16
    Pretty sure it was in the ST:HB FAQ, but I'd have to go looking through the older books to make sure.

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    • #17
      I think ST Handbook says ''whichever you want'', alongside with Perma/Temp Willpower difficulty on rolls.

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      • #18
        I peeked in the Revised ST handbook (I don't own it) but I couldn't find this in the FAQs. Are you talking about 2nd edition handbook perhaps?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
          I peeked in the Revised ST handbook (I don't own it) but I couldn't find this in the FAQs. Are you talking about 2nd edition handbook perhaps?

          I find it (my players too) unfair to have form stats, only for raw physical rolls and not for gift activation or other spiritual stuff like rituals, as for social attribute penalties on social gifts, they apply only against humans and its quite thematical towards the mood of the game. If you go as Crinos to persuade a human not to jump from a window, or not to hurt his wife, well, dood you will growl and roar between single words like ''kill'', ''maim'', ''fight'', ''slay'', ''die'', ummm not quite social.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
            I find it (my players too) unfair to have form stats, only for raw physical rolls and not for gift activation or other spiritual stuff like rituals, as for social attribute penalties on social gifts, they apply only against humans and its quite thematical towards the mood of the game.
            But vampires, mages and changelings are still probably hard to persuade by a three and a half meters Crinos saying "kill" "maim" "die". Also, humans will be affected by delirium and penalities won't really be worth anything to them. No, I feel there's little point in having form penalities working only for humans.

            It still feels weird to have the full base stats for all the gifts, though. Gorgon's Gaze would make no sense without the basic Appearance rating, but at the same time Persuasion would make no sense if I didn't count the form modifiers. Don't know, maybe I'll just play it by ear and pick whatever makes more sense for every different situation.

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            • #21
              I really need to get PDFs of the older books for times like this. Or I'm remember something one of the developers said on the old forums... sorry for the wrong book guess.

              A small point of order: Persuasion doesn't matter. It's a Charisma roll (which is never penalized because... reasons?). The benefits of Persuasion are impacted by form bonuses after activation anyway. Whatever form you activate it in, it's a -2 difficulty to social rolls for the rest of the Scene. If you can't make a social roll (like an Appearance roll in Crinos to something that's not a Garou or spirit), there's nothing to apply the -2 to. If you're using Glabro to try to manipulate a vampire, you lose two dice, but get the -2 difficulty.

              In general though... when it comes to the Manipulation and Appearance form modifiers... that vast majority of them fall into two categories: It doesn't matter because the Gift only works on targets that don't care about the social form modifiers, or it penalizes the Gift illogically. The is especially true of Manipulation, since Manipulation gets used a lot in situations where... it's kinda weird because you're not socially manipulating anything or being big and scary should help: Jam Tech (in W20 at least, there's no influencing the spirits of things here that's the Control Machine Gifts), Mark of the Wolf, Disquiet (even if it's better against things with Rage), Reshape Object, Curse of Hatred (again better against things with Rage, but still works on other targets), Madness, Silence the Weaver, Terror of the Dire Wolf, Blur of the Milky Eye, Gremlins, Take the True Form (since it works on magical shapeshifting in general, you could even undo a mage's spell transforming a human to a frog), Break the Bonds, Mindspeak, Call the Wyrm (a bit questionable because it's a bit ambiguous on what's Wyrmish enough on this to work), Song of Rage, Head Games, Shadows by Firelight, Kali's Tongue, Kneel, Guise of the Hound, Blink, Infest, Faerie Kin, Redirect Pain, Quicksand, Scabwalker Curse, Dark of Night, Icy Chill of Despair, Under the Gun, Dam the Heartflow, and Wuxing.

              Assimilation, Infectious Laughter, Ultimate Argument of Logic, Geas, and Cold Voice of Reason, are the ones that I could be swayed to think the Manipulation penalty should apply to, but in most cases using them on a normal human wouldn't work because they'd be running away and such, or there's no particular reason to be in other forms (When would you want to use Assimilation or Infectious Laughter on humans and not already be in Homid? You're going to worry about social graces or getting people to laugh when you're in Hispo?); can Crinos, Hispo and Lupus even properly laugh to activate Infectious Laughter? All of these are extremely edge cases compared to the big list of things that are penalized oddly if you apply the Manipulation form modifier. You need to be in a form the targets can understand for some of them as well (again, negating having to worry about being in Crinos while using Cold Voice of Reason on a human).

              And all of the above are just W20 core Manipulation activation Gifts, that don't only work on spirits/Garou/etc. I think people forget how often Manipulation gets used in Gifts. There's a few in there was the penalty isn't just annoying, it's downright counter intuitive. Terror of the Dire Wolf, Song of Rage, and Icy Chill od Despair are supposed to heighten how scary you are, being in Crinos should really be getting a bonus, not a penalty, to activate them.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                sorry for the wrong book guess.
                It's cool, no one can remember where every rule is written in a hundred published books. I also got a couple of ideas for my current campaign by reading it so it's all good in the end. ; )

                And all of the above are just W20 core Manipulation activation Gifts, that don't only work on spirits/Garou/etc. I think people forget how often Manipulation gets used in Gifts. There's a few in there was the penalty isn't just annoying, it's downright counter intuitive. Terror of the Dire Wolf, Song of Rage, and Icy Chill od Despair are supposed to heighten how scary you are, being in Crinos should really be getting a bonus, not a penalty, to activate them.
                You make a pretty strong case overall and I totally agree on the weirdness of the intimidation modifiers.
                I remember that a note in Vicissitude 4 (from the Vampire manual) tells the ST to substitute social stats with Strength for intimidation rolls while the vampire is in Zulo form (you're basically intimidating with sheer size alone) and I usually ask for the same roll when I feel it appropriate (not against other garous but it might apply with vampires). Perhaps the beauty of the Storytelling system is that you can ask whatever roll you think it's best for the scene with just a few limitations.
                Of course, being these gifts and not regular intimidation rolls there's no rule (or even a clear RAI) saying we should replace social stats with others.

                Still, I'm making just a note: Manipulation is a Social stat, not a Physical one. It's not by sleight of hand that your knife stops cutting (=jam technology effect), if you're rolling Man it means you're trying to persuade something, somehow.

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                • #23
                  A large number of those Gifts talk about manipulating spiritual energy directly. We probably completely agree on how weak of a connection that is for what should probably be Intelligence or Wits based Gift. I think the idea is to highlight the more direct animist nature of the setting where you don't need to use intercessors like spirits to do things for you, but controlling your emotional expressions (which is Manipulation) can be strengthened to the point of changing the nearby spiritual landscape.

                  Jam Technology or Silence the Weaver make the spiritual energy in the area affected hostile to technology in that fashion, where Control [X] Machine is stated to directly manipulate the spirit of the target object.

                  I wouldn't have designed things that way, but it does seem to be the only way to interpret the designers there.

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                  • #24
                    Thank you all for your efforts .

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      I wouldn't have designed things that way, but it does seem to be the only way to interpret the designers there.
                      I don't know, I think it was just a game balancing issue: they needed to put Man in several gifts to keep it valuable, while Wits is already valuable enough since it affects both initiative and extra actions. Some choices don't really look the best on the table, but it's hard to properly evaluate them without knowing their reasons.

                      We can still modify whatever we don't feel appropriate, but still.

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                      • #26
                        The balance between the Attributes is pretty eh without the impact of Gifts. Gifts don't really help much either. There are way more Dexterity activated Gifts than Strength... which isn't something you'd do if you were using Gifts to balance things.

                        And it doesn't have to be changing the Attributes. As you said, a social Attribute based Gift should probably involve... using social actions in some way. Having more "influence spirits" than "influence spiritual energy" would be one of many ways to alter things.

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