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Tribal/Breed weaknesses from Revised edition: Can they be (or not be) a thing in W20?

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  • Tribal/Breed weaknesses from Revised edition: Can they be (or not be) a thing in W20?

    I know that they aren't mentioned at all in neither W20 nor CB20 and I'm wondering what the story with that is. From what I (think I) heard, they weren't popular even when they were optional and White Wolf/OPP just decided to drop them altogether, is that right?

    AFAICT, only the Bastet Yava are still in play because they're prominently mention in the Bastet chapter of CB20, but the rest of the Breeds don't get a mention of their weaknesses. Did I read CB20 right?

    What's the full story with this, does anyone know? And what are people's opinions on the subject?
    Last edited by Su-tehp; 11-05-2018, 07:51 PM.

  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
    However, I personally like the idea that each tribe follows the ban of their totem at least a bit. That, similar to the tribal vow of the Uratha, is a social construct that would make sense to uphold.
    On the other hand, it could be that the Garou of each Tribe are ( usually ) on such good terms with their Tribal Totem, that these bans don't need to be upholded by them. And they mostly have such an attitude towards this - something along the lines of " Why would they need to prove anything further ? " .
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 11-07-2018, 03:15 AM.

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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Imho, the tribal weaknesses are not only rather janky, but unlike with vampires you can join a tribe while having heritage in another. Aside from Children of Osiris, every member of a clan is still a member of a clan bloodline. But many Gnawers, Coggies,etc. can come from variety of backgrounds. So having an unified weakness makes much less sense with garou. The only somewhat good one is the Silent Strider one, but it has a LOT of set up in the books.

    However, I personally like the idea that each tribe follows the ban of their totem at least a bit. That, similar to the tribal vow of the Uratha, is a social construct that would make sense to uphold.

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  • Story Letter
    replied
    glamourweaver , Good idea bro.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    I used to play always using the Tribe weakness then with W20 I embraced not using Them and it is way more fun. Another option I remember an old essay by an author where they suggest using Bans and it was pretty good option.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Just to be a bit more clear since mechanics came up: when I referenced the VtM Clan weaknesses, it isn't about their mechanical heft, but the thematics involved. For most of the Clans, their weakness is extremely important to the Clan concept. Nosferatu are ugly, Gangrel are animalistic, Brujah are passionate, etc. It doesn't hurt that Clans only really provide you two things: a set of Disciplines you favor and a weakness; and the Disciplines don't say that much. Brujah get Potence where Toreador get Auspex... OK... that doesn't really help you separate them conceptually. Brujah have penalties to resisting Frenzy and Toreador are intention derailing absorbed with aesthetic issues (trying to sum that up with the differences between editions succinctly)... which is a much more obvious difference.

    That's a lot of what the WtA Tribal weakness lack. If you took someone that never played WtA before, and gave them a one sentence description of the 13 Tribes, and a one sentence non-mechanical description of the 13 weaknesses that avoids give aways... I think you'd have a lot of misses (though it doesn't help when you have things like the Uktena vs. the Stargazers). You have to know a lot about the lore of the game to understand why most of them fit at all.

    You're not going to take the Fenrir weakness and the Wendigo weakness and go, "Oh, that's the conceptual difference between these Tribes of angry warrior types from the frozen north."

    What really hammers this home in WtA are the Background restrictions.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    Most of the tribal weaknesses are the side effects of half-spirit/half-flesh beings pledging themselves to the service of a powerful spirit being. Fenris, for example, is heavily fixated on strength, and as a result, his children have a compulsive dislike for perceived weakness in others - using modern technology, compromising in one's beliefs, showing fear in the face fo danger, etc. (All of the tribal camps are, arguably, based on an intolerance for something - sexism, crime, humans, etc.). This sort of mindset even spills over into packs who pledge themselves to Fenris, where they can't back down from a worthy fight.

    The one's I've never been all that wild about were the ones for the Glass Walkers and Red Talons, the Bone Gnawers, and the Children of Gaia.
    Except that they were never fluffed that way and don't make sense even in that context. If Fenris had hooks in the tribe like that, the Get would be getting hit with the kind of harsh loss of powers suggested in the excreable storytelling chapter of Exalted: the Lunars, not becoming snippy and prideful.

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  • Su-tehp
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    The one's I've never been all that wild about were the ones for the Glass Walkers and Red Talons, the Bone Gnawers, and the Children of Gaia.
    It's funny you should say that because those four in particular strike me as perhaps the most appropriate and/or most fitting of the tribal weaknesses. It makes sense (or is at least thematically appropriate) to me that the "overattachment" of the Glass Walkers to the Weaver should affect their ability to regain Gnosis in the wilderness, as well as the same/opposite for Red Talons, the Wyld and regaining Gnosis in cities. It makes sense (or is at least thematically appropriate) to me that the Bone Gnawers would have a game mechanic that reflects how the other tribes (with maybe the exceptions of the GWs and the CoG) look down on them. It makes sense (or is at least thematically appropriate) to me that the CoG, out of all the tribes by far, did the most to end the Impergium and that action came back to bite them in the ass (no good deed goes unpunished, after all, especially in the World of Darkness) by giving them a significantly lessened Delirium with a commensurate threat to the Veil.

    But then, we're talking about a subjective topic so naturally YMMV.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Most of the tribal weaknesses are the side effects of half-spirit/half-flesh beings pledging themselves to the service of a powerful spirit being. Fenris, for example, is heavily fixated on strength, and as a result, his children have a compulsive dislike for perceived weakness in others - using modern technology, compromising in one's beliefs, showing fear in the face fo danger, etc. (All of the tribal camps are, arguably, based on an intolerance for something - sexism, crime, humans, etc.). This sort of mindset even spills over into packs who pledge themselves to Fenris, where they can't back down from a worthy fight.

    The one's I've never been all that wild about were the ones for the Glass Walkers and Red Talons, the Bone Gnawers, and the Children of Gaia.

    Leave a comment:


  • Su-tehp
    replied
    Yeah, I can't say I was all that enamored of Tribal weaknesses myself when I first encountered them. I know this is a subjective thing for me, but for some reason I can't remember (if there even was a reason), the Silver Fang tribal weakness of having a permanent Derangement like the Malkavians irked me more than the other Garou Tribal weaknesses. Hell, one of the reasons I like Albrecht so much as a character was that he wasn't prone to such madness, unlike his more unfortunate (great-)grandfather Jacob Morningkill. Considering that the Silver Fang weakness is virtually the same as the BSD tribal weakness in Book of the Wyrm, both 1st and 2nd Editions (i.e. a permanent Derangement), that has some really unfortunate implications...

    I'm trying to think what sort of appropriate Tribal Weakness the uncorrupted White Howlers would have had before they fell to the Wyrm. Considering what I know of them, I'm thinking of something involving Pride as a Derangement of sorts, however that would work according to the Storyteller System mechanics...

    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    Even alot of the clan weaknesses aren't great.
    No argument there. A number of Clan weaknesses have long been noted to be Weaksauce Weakness, especially when compared to others. Not having a reflection is nowhere near as bad as being completely insane or having a permanently monstrous appearance.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    I always liked borrowing the idea from Forsaken to have Tribal vows, that basically reflect the Tribal Totem's expectations on all Tribe members. It'd basically be a special condition where you lose Renown if you violate.

    For example, Bone Gnawers start hemoraging renown if they hold onto property. Nothing stops a Bone Gnawer from winning the lottery, but Rat expects you to spend that money (either for personal pleasure or toward the ends of fighting the Wyrm, either are fine; as is giving it away), and if you buy land you retain ownership of, she starts to get pissed, and you start losing renown.

    Some of the Tribes are less clean cut and obvious what their Tribal vow would be though. The Apocalypse/Forsaken crossover pdf has some ideas, but some of those suggestions are better than others.
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 11-06-2018, 05:19 PM.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    The Tribe weakness were bleh at best. They're not like the Clan weaknesses in VtM where they're definitive aspects in many regards. They were tacked on later, and are bad for trying to get away from some of the lame stereotyping that WtA is already prone to.
    Even alot of the clan weaknesses aren't great.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    The Tribe weakness were bleh at best. They're not like the Clan weaknesses in VtM where they're definitive aspects in many regards. They were tacked on later, and are bad for trying to get away from some of the lame stereotyping that WtA is already prone to.

    Leave a comment:

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