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  • #16
    The problem is the how Frenzy will effect the story (from what we know so far) is essentially binary. Your results are, "people might remember and maybe there's some penalty like limited dialogue, side quest cuts offs, store price increases, but the main plot proceeds without caring," or, "Frenzy would derail the main plot so game over." And the presumes there's no atonement mechanic like regaining Humanity and Masquerade points in Bloodlines to make Frenzy that doesn't game over even less of a sting.

    If you were playing a normal WtA game, and your ST wrote the story so tightly that a single Frenzy at the wrong time could completely derail the whole game enough that the ST decides to end it there... you'd probably consider that bad STing. But that's basically what we're told this game does.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      If you were playing a normal WtA game, and your ST wrote the story so tightly that a single Frenzy at the wrong time could completely derail the whole game enough that the ST decides to end it there... you'd probably consider that bad STing. But that's basically what we're told this game does.
      The tabletop game has a freedom you can't recreate in a videogame, ofc, but you can be flexible.
      If i get a game over for killing a core NPC then it's... well, kinda standard for action games but quite bad overall. What should happen is for them to implement a path or two that allow you to finish the game even if you happen to kill every NPC you're not supposed to.

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      • #18
        One issue in regard to a W:tA PC game came to my mind - playing a Black Spiral Dancer, or some other Wyrm-aligned Garou. I am almost certain that such an option won't be included ; and it seems to me that most fans of World of Darkness would not consider it a priority, or would be against it. It has been so in WoD that there are some groups or kinds of persons who are considered to be especially evil or villianous, and thus are seen as being NPC-only. However, it has long been a very distinct trend in PC games - most common and visible in RTSes and RPGs - that there is an option to play as the side that could be considered to be unambiguously antagonistic, villainous, dark, or evil. This usually takes one of three forms - the option can be available from the start ; or there is an option during gameplay to side with the storyline's antagonists ; or there is an option to become a villain without cooperation with the antagonists. Some PC games have the option of playing an antagonistic / anti-heroic protagonist who still accomplishes heroic goals, at least to an extent ( Mass Effect, Jade Empire ) ; but this is different than what I'm referring to.

        In the Heroes of Might and Magic series there are campaigns for the villainous factions ; though in some iterations the group that is played, or at least the leader, is one that has heroic tendencies or is heroic. The Disciples series has campaigns of the villainous factions. The Dawn of War series allows playing as the unambiguously evil factions in the campaigns ; though this being Warhammer 40k, the 'good' factions could be considered to be villains as well. The Chaos Rising expansion for Dawn of War 2 has the possibility that the protagonist Imperial Space Marines can become corrupted by / aligned with Chaos. Jade Empire has some decidedly evil choices that the character can make ( separately from being an anti-hero ) . Some Star Wars games allow the PC to follow the Dark Side. Probably the most notable in regard to this is the Knights of the Old Republic series. Also, in some of the strategical-tactical mods ( custom maps ) for Warcraft 3 ( for example in Lordaeron: Aftermath, Dark Ages of Warcraft, Glory of the Horde ) there are options for some of the factions to accomplish an event or to do a research, that makes them become an evil or darker variant of their faction ; or makes them switch to an evil or dark faction.

        I know that it is very, very unlikely that there will be an option of a separate and different playthrough as a Black Spiral Dancer ( or some other Wyrm-aligned Garou ) as the player character ; similarily, chances are very, very low that there will be a W:tA PC game about playing a Wyrm-aligned Garou. However, I think it would be interesting option if the player character could side with the Wyrm, probably at a point close to the game's finale. This could be somewhat of a secret or obscure option in the game - possibly available only if the negative side of a morality meter is filled out completely ( or if a Wyrm Taint meter is filled out completely ) through the PC's choices and actions.
        Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-02-2018, 03:03 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          I know that it is very, very unlikely that there will be an option of a separate and different playthrough as a Black Spiral Dancer ( or some other Wyrm-aligned Garou ) as the player character ; similarily, chances are very, very low that there will be a W:tA PC game about playing a Wyrm-aligned Garou.
          Well... playing a BSD is basically as playing a nazi guard in the Dachau camp. It's not that you can't by law (okay, maybe in Germany you can't), but public opinion and basic morality are generally against it.
          WtA is a game where you are a flawed crusader, the good guy that screws up trying to set things right; so you mess up and you are in no way perfect but you're still fighting the Good Fight, doing your best to save this world and the last shreds left of Gaia in a virtually doomed struggle. Playing a BSD means that you're becoming the oppressor, siding with the stronger side and performing all the kinds of heinous acts. People freaked out so much when Postal and Carmageddon were published, just imagine that plus rape, pollution, torture, child abuse and genocide, everything lived from the side of the abuser which takes pride in such work.

          You won't get a BSD game, ever. XD

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

            Well... playing a BSD is basically as playing a nazi guard in the Dachau camp. It's not that you can't by law (okay, maybe in Germany you can't), but public opinion and basic morality are generally against it.
            WtA is a game where you are a flawed crusader, the good guy that screws up trying to set things right; so you mess up and you are in no way perfect but you're still fighting the Good Fight, doing your best to save this world and the last shreds left of Gaia in a virtually doomed struggle. Playing a BSD means that you're becoming the oppressor, siding with the stronger side and performing all the kinds of heinous acts. People freaked out so much when Postal and Carmageddon were published, just imagine that plus rape, pollution, torture, child abuse and genocide, everything lived from the side of the abuser which takes pride in such work.

            You won't get a BSD game, ever. XD
            Since when PC games are under scrutiny ? Do you think some "public opinion" ( a scattering of articles? ) being against Postal and Carmageddon because of ''basic morality" is indicative of some guidelines that PC games need to or should abide by ? I don't think it is so at all. Seriously, in the Dune RTS PC games you can play as House Harkonnen. Since I read the Dune series as a young teenager the surname Harkonnen is synomous for me with malicious cruelty and no holds barred exploitation. I am certain that it is Baron Harokonnen, rather than the Postal dude, that Black Spiral Dancers would want to hang out with ; you can also include the Baron's nephews: the degenerate Glossu Rabban 'the Beast' , and Feyd-Rautha - whose distinction is that he "is not as bad" as the other Harkonnens.

            In the Lord of the Rings RTS games Battle for Middle Earth 1 and 2 you can play as the forces of Sauron. And there is an expansion pack centered around the Nazgul Witch-King of Angmar, who gets his own campaign ; his forces are a separate faction that can be played as. In Knights of the Old Republic 2 you can turn your companions to the Dark Side.

            What is it specifically about the Black Spiral Dancers, that makes you think that they are unsuitable as being playable in a PC game ? Do you also think that, for example, House Harokonnen and Sith characters should not be playable ?
            And assuming that one cares about the media and possible reactions - don't you think that if playable House Harokonnen, forces of Sauron, and Sith characters ( and other options to play as evil or dark characters or factions ) didn't cause any reaction ( as far as I am aware of ) , then it would be the same with playable Black Spiral Dancers ( or other Wyrm-aligned Garou ) ? Why would it - or should it - be any different in regard to BSDs ( that the media or some persons would react with an outcry to BSDs being playable ) ?

            Also, the playable Black Spiral Dancer could be one that would be focused on killing and terror ( for example ) ; no mind-numbing abuse would be done or supported by the PC.
            Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-06-2018, 08:04 PM.

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            • #21
              Video games are under a lot of scrutiny.

              RTS or 4X games that let you play "bad guys" generally get a pass because they're so far removed from the bad things they do. The Dune RTS games don't sections when you're playing the Harkonnen where you force slaves to fight to the death for your sport. House Harkonnen isn't some sort of genetically evil bloodline. The head of the house in the original novel is an evil scumbag that fills his inner circle with such scumbags. His brother is actually a perfectly decent guy that went off to rule a planet by himself to get away from the toxicity of the Landsraad and House politics.

              Games like Postal or Carmageddon (or the GTA series, or Saint's Row, etc. etc.) are supposed to be satirical, not serious games.

              "Go evil" options like the Dark Side in various Star Wars games, or Renegade in Mass Effect, or pick a number of examples don't really impact what your character does much. Maybe you kill a character instead of sparing them, but in general the choices are very minor and your character rarely does anything that bad.

              BSDs are supposed to be a serious evil, not a joke, which is where the comparison to Postal and it's like doesn't work. BSDs as directly playable means you're not removing thing to an RTS level where people can overlook the horrible things they do, so the Dune stuff falls away. You're not picking to do evil things, you're doing evil things by default and that would have to be the direct point of the game, so KotoR is out.

              A game where you get presented choices like, "would you like the Gaian kin you kidnapped raped, tortured, or cooked, and in what combination/order," is going to get an epic amount of negative attention.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                o

                A game where you get presented choices like, "would you like the Gaian kin you kidnapped raped, tortured, or cooked, and in what combination/order," is going to get an epic amount of negative attention.
                Accurate reference to the heads of the Tratic Wyrm with actions! Congratulations, you are officially corrupted brother !
                Last edited by Story Letter; 12-07-2018, 11:10 AM.

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                • #23
                  This discussion is reminding me when I forced a Wookie to kill his 16 year old companion towards the end of Star Wars: KotOR. Good times.


                  I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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                  • #24
                    I am thinking that although there will be no choice of the player character's Tribe, then maybe the developers could include choosing the PC's Auspice ? This could change some statistics, dialogue, game mechanics, and parts of the plot ( for example they could include Auspice-specific quests or tasks ) .

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      A game where you get presented choices like, "would you like the Gaian kin you kidnapped raped, tortured, or cooked, and in what combination/order," is going to get an epic amount of negative attention.
                      Yeah, the Black Spiral Dancers are monsters in the truest sense of the word. Even back when White Wolf was pushing the envelope on edgy RPG games, they had the BSD's firmly walled off as non-player characters and would include warnings that while Storytellers could allow players to play Black Spiral Dancers if they really wanted to, that would not be a terribly good idea and that BSD's were very much not intended to be PC's. Unlike the Sabbat or the Technocracy or certain other "villain" groups which are more player friendly, there's just no escaping from the fact that BSDs are downright evil on a whole other level.

                      And while they could water down the BSD's in order to make them more player friendly, that would ultimately kind of defeat the purpose of the BSD's as monsters among monsters. Besides, I think there are enough tribes out there (Red Talons, Uktena, Shadowlords, Get of Fenris, etc) that could reasonably have "evil" moral choices in such a game that there wouldn't really be a need for BSD's to fill that kind of niche.

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                      • #26
                        Plus, it doesn't fit WtA's tone. As much as I have seen people push for WtA to be darker or more ambigious, the fact is that the game isn't about the same things as Vampire or Mage or Changeling.

                        Especially in a Videogame, BSDs are best as foes or frightening antagonists. I mean, if they feature in-game at all in any good way. I don't like the 'dumb BSD cannon fodder' trope much, facing them as a dark mirror would be great. But joining them would mean the creators had to throw a lot of the story paths they planned out of the window and somehow keep it tasteful, if they even want to do it right and not like the Anarch or Kuei-Jin paths in VtM:B.

                        Not that I think games cannot go dark, Planescape Torment and earlier Fallouts come to mind. But that was mostly text. Even then, rape was never on the table there.


                        My gallery.

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                        • #27
                          The option to join the BSDs should be a non-standard game over. "Everyone goes insane, the end."

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                            The option to join the BSDs should be a non-standard game over. "Everyone goes insane, the end."
                            Sounds about right.


                            What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                            • #29
                              I kind of agree with this as well. BSD are all insane, not real life mental health problems but Hollywood insane. Yes they have goals and being wolves have a pack mentality meaning they can work together but imagin playing one to be the same as trying to play Batman’s joaker.

                              Now a game where your character is falling to the Wyrm, intentionally or not could be interesting. But part of what would make it interesting would be the gradual loss of control, as the inevitable corruption took your character over. Almost Call of Cthulhu style, I fact I would be tempted to introduce a sanity system like it had if you wanted to do a game like that. But it would still ultimately end with your character becoming an unplayable NPC.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by edd123 View Post
                                I kind of agree with this as well. BSD are all insane, not real life mental health problems but Hollywood insane. Yes they have goals and being wolves have a pack mentality meaning they can work together but imagin playing one to be the same as trying to play Batman’s joaker.
                                No, well, they're all real-life mental health problems insane, since they get one derangement each after walking the Spiral. But they also express extremely antisocial behaviours and they have the power to be dangerous on a global scale, so they fit the definition of Hollywood insane too.

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