News on the Werewolf game - New Publisher, still no exact details

[Asmodai]

https://www.dualshockers.com/werewol...elease-window/

Since I guess this might be of interest, and I haven't seen it posted yet. Still no information about the engine or actual underpinnings of the game, but the new due date is 2020 now.

[Heavy Arms]

I'm trying to say that "Hollywood" in this context means, "putting story over accuracy," rather than some specific extreme or comical take.

Every BSD has a severe Derangement that's "Hollywood-ish" because Derangements are "Hollywood-ish," and there's no escaping that without house ruling it or some such.

And most people with mental health issues are aware that they're unwell, just like most people are aware when they have an infection: things aren't normal and in a detrimental way.

[Maris Streck]

That's actually... not really disproving the point, it's highlighting it. "Hollywood" mental disorders aren't a problem because they're strictly comedic or extreme, but rather props for the genre of the film with little concern for accuracy.

It depends on what you're trying to say. I wrote that each BSD has a severe derangement and that they don't need to be comical or Hollywood-ish, and we both agree that on the manual they're presented in an extreme and Hollywood-ish way.

This is actually one of the bigger problems with Derangements. Specific disorders are linked with specific symptoms, but it's never that easy in reality.

In reality we do not have access to our character sheet or core manual, though. The characters themselves probably do not know they're sick, even less what causes their derangement and how; but we, the players, build them in a specific way that makes it easy to put cause and effects in correlation.

[Heavy Arms]

Hrm, I disagree.

Except you really don't:

Secondly, they're obviously simplified but the point is to set a specific level of disadvantage for the game;

Derangements aren't about accurately emulating real world disorders. They're about mental disorders designed to meet the narrative needs of the game; relying on common media tropes for players to hook into rather than seriously delving into these. They're game/story props just like "Hollywood" mental conditions are genre/story props.

This is actually one of the bigger problems with Derangements. Specific disorders are linked with specific symptoms, but it's never that easy in reality.

I can make my multiple personality disorder just as comical and extreme as any hollywood movie but I can also tone it down and have it played from a more realistic point of view; it's all up to me and to my knowledge of mental diseases.

That's actually... not really disproving the point, it's highlighting it. "Hollywood" mental disorders aren't a problem because they're strictly comedic or extreme, but rather props for the genre of the film with little concern for accuracy.

[Maris Streck]

The Derangements, even ones that share names with real conditions, are "Hollywood" insane.

Hrm, I disagree. First of all they're there more as an example than as an exclusive list, every ST can cook up their own rules for derangements.
Secondly, they're obviously simplified but the point is to set a specific level of disadvantage for the game; an hoarding mental condition is surely suitable as a derangement, if severe enough, but it's hardly going to be relevant in a Werewolf campaign. It could of course be a great trait for a BSD npc but for a player character it's not on par with the other ones, not unless the ST is going to set up the whole story in the character's house.

Thirdly, it's all a matter of boundaries. I can make my multiple personality disorder just as comical and extreme as any hollywood movie but I can also tone it down and have it played from a more realistic point of view; it's all up to me and to my knowledge of mental diseases.

[Heavy Arms]

The Derangements, even ones that share names with real conditions, are "Hollywood" insane.

[Maris Streck]

I kind of agree with this as well. BSD are all insane, not real life mental health problems but Hollywood insane. Yes they have goals and being wolves have a pack mentality meaning they can work together but imagin playing one to be the same as trying to play Batman’s joaker.

No, well, they're all real-life mental health problems insane, since they get one derangement each after walking the Spiral. But they also express extremely antisocial behaviours and they have the power to be dangerous on a global scale, so they fit the definition of Hollywood insane too.

[edd123]

I kind of agree with this as well. BSD are all insane, not real life mental health problems but Hollywood insane. Yes they have goals and being wolves have a pack mentality meaning they can work together but imagin playing one to be the same as trying to play Batman’s joaker.

Now a game where your character is falling to the Wyrm, intentionally or not could be interesting. But part of what would make it interesting would be the gradual loss of control, as the inevitable corruption took your character over. Almost Call of Cthulhu style, I fact I would be tempted to introduce a sanity system like it had if you wanted to do a game like that. But it would still ultimately end with your character becoming an unplayable NPC.

[Asmodai]

The option to join the BSDs should be a non-standard game over. "Everyone goes insane, the end."

Sounds about right.

[HardestadtTheEvenYounger]

The option to join the BSDs should be a non-standard game over. "Everyone goes insane, the end."

[Ana Mizuki]

Plus, it doesn't fit WtA's tone. As much as I have seen people push for WtA to be darker or more ambigious, the fact is that the game isn't about the same things as Vampire or Mage or Changeling.

Especially in a Videogame, BSDs are best as foes or frightening antagonists. I mean, if they feature in-game at all in any good way. I don't like the 'dumb BSD cannon fodder' trope much, facing them as a dark mirror would be great. But joining them would mean the creators had to throw a lot of the story paths they planned out of the window and somehow keep it tasteful, if they even want to do it right and not like the Anarch or Kuei-Jin paths in VtM:B.

Not that I think games cannot go dark, Planescape Torment and earlier Fallouts come to mind. But that was mostly text. Even then, rape was never on the table there.

[AnubisXy]

A game where you get presented choices like, "would you like the Gaian kin you kidnapped raped, tortured, or cooked, and in what combination/order," is going to get an epic amount of negative attention.

Yeah, the Black Spiral Dancers are monsters in the truest sense of the word. Even back when White Wolf was pushing the envelope on edgy RPG games, they had the BSD's firmly walled off as non-player characters and would include warnings that while Storytellers could allow players to play Black Spiral Dancers if they really wanted to, that would not be a terribly good idea and that BSD's were very much not intended to be PC's. Unlike the Sabbat or the Technocracy or certain other "villain" groups which are more player friendly, there's just no escaping from the fact that BSDs are downright evil on a whole other level.

And while they could water down the BSD's in order to make them more player friendly, that would ultimately kind of defeat the purpose of the BSD's as monsters among monsters. Besides, I think there are enough tribes out there (Red Talons, Uktena, Shadowlords, Get of Fenris, etc) that could reasonably have "evil" moral choices in such a game that there wouldn't really be a need for BSD's to fill that kind of niche.

[Muad'Dib]

I am thinking that although there will be no choice of the player character's Tribe, then maybe the developers could include choosing the PC's Auspice ? This could change some statistics, dialogue, game mechanics, and parts of the plot ( for example they could include Auspice-specific quests or tasks ) .

[Fat Larry]

This discussion is reminding me when I forced a Wookie to kill his 16 year old companion towards the end of Star Wars: KotOR. Good times.

[Story Letter]

o

A game where you get presented choices like, "would you like the Gaian kin you kidnapped raped, tortured, or cooked, and in what combination/order," is going to get an epic amount of negative attention.

Accurate reference to the heads of the Tratic Wyrm with actions! Congratulations, you are officially corrupted brother !