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  • Primal Urge 0

    whats it like for a shifter with no primal urge?

    Is it even possible for a animal born shifter?




  • #2
    Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
    whats it like for a shifter with no primal urge?

    Is it even possible for a animal born shifter?

    I'd imagine yes for something born in captivity

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    • #3
      primal urge is increased... by living a beasts life for a time?


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      • #4
        Like many Talents, how one increases it is.... fairly vague. Generally "use it a lot" is what most people would go with.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          Like many Talents, how one increases it is.... fairly vague. Generally "use it a lot" is what most people would go with.
          Considering that you use/roll Primal Urge every time you shapeshift, I always figured that it would be one of the easiest skills to justify spending XP on.



          Complete Garou Gifts List, Fera Gifts List, Garou Totems List and other assorted OPP/White Wolf goodies

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          • #6
            Well, depends on how you shift (there's Rage and Merits that skip the roll and all that).

            Like most XP it also depends a lot on your ST. Especially as Primal Urge does a lot of things besides shifting, some STs like to see you broaden your use more than use the Ability the same way over and over.

            My point was that unlike, say, Athletics and Brawl where most people have a good mental image of what training and improvement in those looks like (cue montage!), we don't necessarily have the same reference points for things like Alertness, Empathy, or Primal Urge.

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            • #7
              Lupus PCs have just as much Ability points at character creation that homids have, but a lot less Abilities because of initial breed restrictions. If they don't buy Primal Urge, it's an extraordinarily bad decision. I probably wouldn't even allow it as an ST. Buying it to at least 3 makes sense, and I'd probably allow any lupus PC to bring it up to 5 with Freebies. As an ST, I don't even know if I'd ever have a lupus NPC will any Primal Urge lower than 3.

              As an ST, I am probably on the higher end of the spectrum of those who require some effort by the players to justify their XP spending. For lupus, it would be more like if their consistent RP was keeping their character in the wilderness and natural world, and not allowing it if they obviously began to adopt or learn about man's ways. So it would be more about them NOT doing certain things. For homids and metis, it would be about them showing how they are relying more on their instincts and intuition instead of their rational mind.

              I typically don't require much justification to buy Abilities up to 1 or even level 2. But after that, it's a lot more. So simply shapechanging a lot would be OK to get Primal Urge 1 if they started with zero. But I'd expect a little more effort at flavor text and use to justify level 2 (but something simple, like using some of the Gifts that reference it). And I'd expect a lot more justification than just shapechanging to get 3 and above. If all you think of is shapechanging when it comes to primal urge, you are ignoring all the other things primal urge is used for. It's like saying you can increase Academics from 1 to 5 by rereading the same volume of Shakespeare again and again. Someone whose use of primal urge is limited to shapechanging just has too limited an understanding of it to progress far in its ranks. I'd be looking for the PC to use the ability to hunt (instead of survival), using it appraise them of danger in an sub-conscious manner (something is not right, but unnatural around him their gut tells them), or attempting to use it to gain some sort of insight at something happening in the wilderness eco-system (jnstead of an appropriate Knowledge). I'd also expect some "wild" behavior to show up in their human life: not wanting to be constrained, reacting aggressively to threats that appear weaker than them, stalking people that interest them in some way, chasing things that seem like prey, and accepting and seeking out natural dominance hierarchies. It's about tapping into the essence of being a wild animal and letting instinct guide you.

              The rulebook shows that ranks 3 and above are equivalent to things that take years of education and even more years of practicing in order to achieve that rank. I know for most STs whose games are in the now and occur over short periods of time, that is something that is just ignored. They'll allow PCs to progress from 1 to 5 in a span of months in game time. Those games are still fun, but my preference is for a more realistic development over time. It is one reason I prefer historical games that I can have game time go many years. even many decades so PCs can develop their attributes to that level. But everyone has their own preference.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                whats it like for a shifter with no primal urge?

                Is it even possible for a animal born shifter?
                There are no restrictions, rule-wise, but still remember that every trait the character has needs to be backed by his background and approved by the Storyteller.
                Homids might start without Primal Urge, just think about Glass Walkers and werewolves who always lived inside the human civilization. They can, of course, never raise it but after a while it becomes quite stupid - your character should become better in the activities he spends most of his time, and spending time in wolf form usually equals to raising primal urge.

                Lupus characters make no sense without that skill. It covers smelling, tracking and living outdoor as a beast. A wolf without primal urge, athletics and brawl is unable to survive on his own and will definitely develop all these three in his first year. Things may differ for a wolf born in captivity, but even if you spent all your life in a cage alone and you didn't have, for example, other cubs to play with (so, no one you could grapple and brawl with) you WILL develop your sense of smell and some degree of primal-urge.

                A similar argument is valid for Metis cubs, since they're usually raised well hidden in wild places, away from human eyes. Unless we're talking, again, of Glass Walkers or a garou with a similar lifestyle there's little sense in having them with no dots of primal urge at creation. But even in Glass Walker's case... a Metis undergoes his first change when he's 10, on average; what did they do, kept the cub for ten years inside a loft and never brought him to get some air? Hardly...


                My point was that unlike, say, Athletics and Brawl where most people have a good mental image of what training and improvement in those looks like (cue montage!), we don't necessarily have the same reference points for things like Alertness, Empathy, or Primal Urge.
                The whole point of the Talents is that they're "natural" skills, something you can learn on your own. Empathy can't be really taught, just to say one, it's something you pick up by living in a society and paying attention to how people reacts around you, and you don't really need to have some trainer for Athletics - just push your body toward harder movements and you'll eventually improve (or break - luckily, you're a Garou here). Having a teacher might help, of course, either showing you how to best connect with your fists or explaining that a specific kind of face usually means "contempt", but as long as the character keeps using or self-training in these activities it shouldn't be much of an issue to have a sensible reason to raise them up.

                There's still the matter of the required time, though: if primal urge 1 might be learnt by living in wolf-form for a weekend your character will need some serious downtime to get his last dot (three years?).
                Last edited by Maris Streck; 12-11-2018, 06:45 AM.

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