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  • Greenpeace and friends

    Suppose some werewolves encountered some Greenpeace volunteers in the woods. They are picking up litter, or removing invasive plant species, or releasing back into the wild animals. This might as well be Friends of Nature, or the Fund for Wild Nature, or any number of similar groups.

    My own thinking is that only the Children of Gaia, and possibly the Glass Walkers, would not kill them.

    They are still human, which means they are part of the problem. They are still in the woods, where they do not belong. The activities of litter clean up, removing invasive plants, and releasing wild animals is by far too little, too late. None of them understand the rage of Gaia - but they will. None of them understand nature red in tooth and claw. But they will. They kill the humans because of the human arrogance. They kill the humans for picking up a single solo cup in the county dump and expecting a cookie and a letter of commendation. They kill the humans for talking about back to nature while wearing rubber boots and polymer clothing. They kill the humans for their temerity. They kill the humans for driving gas burning vehicles to and from the woods on asphalt highways for feel-good bullshit in the woods. They kill the humans for wearing chemical deodorants made by a subsidiary of Pentex. They kill the humans for bringing technology - iPads and Smartphones and other Weaver tools - into the Wyld. They kill the humans because the humans deserve to die.

    Die screaming.
    Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 12-26-2018, 10:47 PM.

  • #2
    Werewolves aren't described like that. Useless violence only split the humans from Gaia in the past, there's generally no reason to kill a human just because he's there. Red Talons aside, there is no tribe or sept that considers humans as a problem to be exterminated, especially because most of the Nation is made by homids.

    Should "the woods" be close enough to a Caern they might consider killing, but let's be honest, if a couple of people disappeared the police would begin looking and you'll then have even more people around. If enough people begin disappearing then you'll have the FBI looking for a serial killer and likely push the local supernatural-tied group on your tracks (Pentex, hunters, the Camarilla, the Technocracy...).

    Any local Silver Fang, Child of Gaia, Shadow Lord, Glass Walker, Bone Gnawer, Uktena or generic garou with some knowledge of the modern world would probably advise to direct the humans away using an excuse or a legal claim rather than violence.

    Of course, the Garou are used to act more by instinct than by thinking so they might slaughter them anyway for trespassing, the behaviour of the single NPC pack is left to the ST to handle. But they're still not idiots and should the elders say to not attack humans they probably won't (unless frenzy). Should the trespassers witness a breach of the Veil we're in a completely different situation though.
    Last edited by Maris Streck; 12-26-2018, 11:24 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
      Suppose some werewolves encountered some Greenpeace volunteers in the woods. They are picking up litter, or removing invasive plant species, or releasing back into the wild animals. This might as well be Friends of Nature, or the Fund for Wild Nature, or any number of similar groups.

      My own thinking is that only the Children of Gaia, and possibly the Glass Walkers, would not kill them.

      They are still human, which means they are part of the problem. They are still in the woods, where they do not belong. The activities of litter clean up, removing invasive plants, and releasing wild animals is by far too little, too late. None of them understand the rage of Gaia - but they will. None of them understand nature red in tooth and claw. But they will. They kill the humans because of the human arrogance. They kill the humans for picking up a single solo cup in the county dump and expecting a cookie and a letter of commendation. They kill the humans for talking about back to nature while wearing rubber boots and polymer clothing. They kill the humans for their temerity. They kill the humans for driving gas burning vehicles to and from the woods on asphalt highways for feel-good bullshit in the woods. They kill the humans for wearing chemical deodorants made by a subsidiary of Pentex. They kill the humans for bringing technology - iPads and Smartphones and other Weaver tools - into the Wyld. They kill the humans because the humans deserve to die.

      Die screaming.

      They might be part of the problem, but at the very least they're taking responsibility for it.

      Not walking away and leaving the Werewolves to clean up their mess, like the rest of the species!

      Saying that humans don't belong in the wild is rather debatable. It was the Weaver who turned humanity away from nature, was it not? So by that logic, humans don't belong within the city. They should cast off their reliance upon technology and rejoin the beasts of the forest so that the balance might be restored.

      But they won't do that... because technology has placed humans on the top of the food chain (as far as they know) and abandoning it would plunge them straight to the bottom.
      Last edited by Nyrufa; 12-26-2018, 11:31 PM.

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      • #4
        I don't think Garou (generally) kill humans for no reason. There are lots of reasons why they might, but there needs to be reasons.

        Intruding onto a Garou caern moot at the caern heart, or during some other solemn rite. Or humans specifically targeted for sacrifice because of a sacred vision. Or if they need to specifically perform some kind of human sacrifice (yes, there are various times some sourcebooks state or imply this happens for special reasons). But otherwise Garou leave normal humans alone.

        Now the Red Talons might slay any human who intrudes upon a caern bawn if the sept is monotribal, but other tribes won't do so automatically.

        Garou might have many reasons to be angry at humanity in general, but they'll likely express it in a way that won't trigger investigations from the FBI or other law enforcement agencies. Portions of the Litany like the Veil and Respecting those Beneath You are also treated seriously. Indiscriminate killing is likely to be treated harshly by most septs. There needs to be a justified reason - something the Garou considers to be a crime or other violation whose punishment is just if it is death.

        Rage certainly drives Garou to violence, but the classic Lon Chaney, Jr. inspiration treats the werewolf as a sympathetic monster because the werewolf is often tormented by that blood lust. It is incorrect to only see the one aspect and not the other.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
          I don't think Garou (generally) kill humans for no reason. There are lots of reasons why they might, but there needs to be reasons.
          (...)
          How about killing or harming a mundane human who is acting badly towards other mundane humans ? Do Garou consider engaging in blackmail, racketing, bribery etc. activities that justify killing or harming mundane humans who do them ?
          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-27-2018, 04:44 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            Werewolves aren't described like that. Useless violence only split the humans from Gaia in the past...
            Only, most werewolves don't actually recognize that. The Impergium started because the humans were inherently wrong. It ended because the War of Rage sort of got in the way (or under the most favorable interpretation -- because some Garou realized that it was making things worse). But even in the modern day (and really, ever since the Industrial Revolution), the Garou are written as almost unanimously agreeing that pretty much everything that's wrong with the world is the fault of the humans (The only exceptions tend to be the CoGs and the Glass Walkers). The default Garou view (and especially that of the Get, the Shadow Lords, the Talons, and the Silver Fangs) is that the only thing that was inherently wrong with the Impergium was that it ended.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
              How about killing or harming a mundane human who is acting badly towards other mundane humans ? Do Garou consider engaging in blackmail, racketing, bribery etc. activities that justify killing or harming mundane humans who do them ?
              I don't think in general those are things that would be a sept approved killing (meaning they'd be sanctioned or approved of), but individual Garou have their own motivations just like individual humans. Now in general, people don't kill criminals who engage in those activities against unrelated people. But certainly those crimes against themselves or loved ones have lead people to kill the criminals. So if the target is someone under their protectorate (even if they don't know the person), it is possible.

              But in general, I think Garou have their own (supernatural and mundane) problems too much to the extent that they will interfere in internal affairs of the Flock that are in no way related to them. But individual motivations can certainly lead to things not generally done.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Uniform Two Six View Post
                The default Garou view (and especially that of the Get, the Shadow Lords, the Talons, and the Silver Fangs) is that the only thing that was inherently wrong with the Impergium was that it ended.
                I'm sorry, under which book?

                I seem to recall that the CoG tribebook says the Impergium ended after the Garou realized they were feeding the Wyrm through it; the Silver Fangs Tribebook states that Falcon itself came demanding an end to the Impergium since it was devastating the Umbra; the GoF Tribebooks says that their tribe didn't start the Impergium and just took advantage of it for breeding just like everyone else, stopping when the damages were obvious and adding that's there is no point in recrimination now. The Stargazers were the first tribe to identify the damage to the Umbra.

                The Uktena, Wendigo and Croatans left the other tribes disgusted by the Impergium and started anew with their kinfolks in primordial America. I think that it's pretty much widely recognized by the Garou nation that it was a monumental mistake, with the single exception of the Red Talons that are unable to see or put in place any other solution to stop the extinction of the wolves.

                How about killing or harming a mundane human who is acting badly towards other mundane humans ? Do Garou consider engaging in blackmail, racketing, bribery etc. activities that justify killing or harming mundane humans who do them ?
                I'd say it depends on the character. Most of the Garou are homids that grew up inside the rules and morality of human society, they all had human friends or lovers and so do their kinfolks. Wolfborn Garou usually have an earnest personality but I doubt that's enough to meddle in the business of another specie: human society is based on lies and complex relations they don't fully understand, humans taking advantage of others is probably no different than any kind of fight for dominance in the animal world.

                Some Garou will care and some won't, the only reason for them to surely act is when the humans are harming Gaia. Yes, lying and taking advantage may strengthen Wyrm spirits but murdering the liers will still strengthen Wyrm spirits.

                Portions of the Litany like the Veil and Respecting those Beneath You are also treated seriously. Indiscriminate killing is likely to be treated harshly by most septs. There needs to be a justified reason - something the Garou considers to be a crime or other violation whose punishment is just if it is death.
                Let's not forget "do not take actions that would endanger a Caern". Bringing the police, hunters or public awareness on a Caern is absolutely going to violate this tenet - and this tenet is probably the only one that every single tribe takes seriously enough to put culprits to death.

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                • #9
                  Great post, Maris.

                  Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                  How about killing or harming a mundane human who is acting badly towards other mundane humans ? Do Garou consider engaging in blackmail, racketing, bribery etc. activities that justify killing or harming mundane humans who do them ?
                  Why would they? Garou aren't the hyper-violent police of the world. If an ape breaks ape law, it isn't the duty of the wolf to set it right. The exception would be if the criminal is messing with the Garou or their families. An unsubtle Garou might kill or maim a corrupt businessman who is attempting to seize Garou-protected land, but even then it isn't like the guy is getting killed for violating a law; he is getting killed because a Garou perceives him as a massive threat.

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                  • #10
                    Humans aren't vampires. Now vampires picking up Trash. They get to die because no ammount of picking up trash counteracts "BEING A VAMPIRE"

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Uniform Two Six View Post
                      The default Garou view (and especially that of the Get, the Shadow Lords, the Talons, and the Silver Fangs) is that the only thing that was inherently wrong with the Impergium was that it ended.
                      Um, no. While this may be the default view of the Red Talons - and even they have their dissenters - this is only the default view of a two of the Tribal Camps - Mother's Fundamentalists (Fianna) and The Glorious Fist of Wotan (Get of Fenris) - both of which are seen as radical extremists by their own Tribes. No Shadow Lord or Silver Fang Camp (or House) advocates such a position.

                      Besides, even if individual Garou believe that ending the Imperigium may have been a mistake in hindsight, it doesn't automatically follow that they'll murder any human they get a chance to. Besides the fact that such behavior is unlikely to win one any Glory - and may even cost Wisdom, as other Garou begin to cast doubts on their judgment and even sanity - it's also the sort of thing that's likely to invite direct challenge from others. And not just Children of Gaia, but Black Furies who object to preying on potential innocents (especially women and children), Get of Fenris who see such behavior as inexcusable weakness, Shadow Lord Judges who believe it to be a Litany violation (not respecting those lower in station, threatening the safety of Caerns, and allowing the Wyrm to dwell and breed in one's heart), Silent Striders approached by the ghosts of the murdered, and Silver Fangs who believe such behavior reflects badly on their leadership.

                      Garou are inherently violent and territorial; they aren't kill-crazy murder machines like Jason Voorhees.


                      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                        How about killing or harming a mundane human who is acting badly towards other mundane humans ? Do Garou consider engaging in blackmail, racketing, bribery etc. activities that justify killing or harming mundane humans who do them ?
                        The Get of Fenris's Hand of Tyr camp does this, as does the Silent Striders' Bitter Hex and the Black Furies' Bacchantes and Sisterhood groups. Members of the Bone Gnawers' Hood and Road Warden camps may also do this from time to time, and there are those Glass Walkers become members of law enforcement. Wendigo, especially in the War Path camp, likely focus such activities on those that threaten their Kinfolk's lands (bootleggers who smuggle alcohol and other drugs on to dry reservations, for example).


                        What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                        Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                        • #13
                          even Red Talons from Whelps Compromise may look to green peace kindly

                          Though their likely to favor more aggressive environmentalism then the CoG.


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                          • #14
                            The idea of Werewolves and Greenpeace just getting along is boring. Better for there to be conflict for all the wrong reasons. Greenpeace's intentions may be good, but what happens when they report signs of illegal camping or poaching. What happens when they get into a werewolf's face because they mistake him for a problem. Or hell, Greenpeace's signature move, painting baby seals green might call the wrong kind of Weaver spirit into the area.


                            Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
                              The idea of Werewolves and Greenpeace just getting along is boring.
                              Now, let's not jump from one tree to another.
                              No one said they need to get along, simply that there is no sense in having them killed for being in the woods; Greenpeace aderhents are no better than regular humans, do not enjoy special treatment and can always cross a sept just as every other organization.

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