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  • #31
    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    Hopefully, both Paradox and Modiphius won’t take any heed of the negative nellies and keep going with 5th editions of all the new lines. The game absolutely needs a good shake up going on the responses of these guys alone.
    The game does need to be shaken up and rebuilt, but having the Nation break into nonsensical factions that are at war with each other, cutting off the Umbra, and bringing back some bizarre attempt at the Impergium is trying to turn the game into something its not at best and edgelord bullshit at its worst. I'm not going to pretend I have the answers to fixing the game and making it perfect for everyone. A lot better homebrewers have made their suggestions in numerous threads. My only suggestion is they basically start the game over. A lot of the problems with WtA is baked into its structure and focus, and these can largely be fixed by refocusing and emphasizing on different things, particularly in a setting that doesn't have to acknowledge an unwieldy and contradictory metaplot that was put on hold for a decade.

    The things Parawolf wanted to do remind me of the mistakes made in Revised Mage. They blew up the setting to try and refocus the game, which created a really vicious edition war that still echoes to this day. With a 5th edition they should have taken this as opportunity to reintroduce the basic setting and premise, just updated and reformed without any comic book like continuity fixing events.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Onkwe View Post

      The game does need to be shaken up and rebuilt, but having the Nation break into nonsensical factions that are at war with each other, cutting off the Umbra, and bringing back some bizarre attempt at the Impergium is trying to turn the game into something its not at best and edgelord bullshit at its worst. I'm not going to pretend I have the answers to fixing the game and making it perfect for everyone. A lot better homebrewers have made their suggestions in numerous threads. My only suggestion is they basically start the game over. A lot of the problems with WtA is baked into its structure and focus, and these can largely be fixed by refocusing and emphasizing on different things, particularly in a setting that doesn't have to acknowledge an unwieldy and contradictory metaplot that was put on hold for a decade.

      The things Parawolf wanted to do remind me of the mistakes made in Revised Mage. They blew up the setting to try and refocus the game, which created a really vicious edition war that still echoes to this day. With a 5th edition they should have taken this as opportunity to reintroduce the basic setting and premise, just updated and reformed without any comic book like continuity fixing events.
      To me, the term 'edgelord' or 'parawolf' is as pejoritive and dismissable as the term 'SJW'. I'm not sure that anybody, official, has made any suggestions of what precise changes would be made in a prospective W5 or M5 yet - they've yet to be confirmed they are even happening.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Trippy View Post
        To me, the term 'edgelord' or 'parawolf' is as pejoritive and dismissable as the term 'SJW'. I'm not sure that anybody, official, has made any suggestions of what precise changes would be made in a prospective W5 or M5 yet - they've yet to be confirmed they are even happening.
        I admit I feel those titles are deserved by the previous WW management. Mostly, because the content presented (in the MET book that seemed to be heading for canon) and the tone. Impegrium 2, in modern days. A VERY uncomfortably handled mention of beastiality rape according to the book itself (changing ways) and bizarre changed to the tribes. Nevermind all the Vampire related stuff.

        So it is not edgelords as in 'I disagree with this content' but as in 'I feel this content was made to cause a kneejerk reaction more than give depth to the setting.'


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        • #34
          Originally posted by Trippy View Post
          To me, the term 'edgelord' or 'parawolf' is as pejoritive and dismissable as the term 'SJW'. I'm not sure that anybody, official, has made any suggestions of what precise changes would be made in a prospective W5 or M5 yet - they've yet to be confirmed they are even happening.
          Sorry for text wall, but I have a lot to say.

          I didn't mean to be pejoritive with 'Parawolf'. It just seems a handy term to differentiate the old school White Wolf company and Onyx Path from what White Wolf is producing under Paradox. NuWW sounds a lot more dismissive to me than Parawolf, but if that's what people meant by it, I'll stop using it.

          As for edgelord, I absolutely meant it as a pejoritive, because that's what the original proposals for W5 and what was actually done to V5 feel like. As Ana said, they come off as change for the sake to shock and awe in a juvenile manner rather than updating the setting or adding depth.

          The getting rid of the spirit world is absolutely detrimental to what I like about the game, and it seems to be the general consensus of the posters here. Could the Umbra use a rethinking? Certainly, but not outright cut from the setting. The physical/spiritual conflict, being torn between two worlds, which mirrors being of both wolf and human heritage, is one of the central themes of the game. Would this be a cool plot to explore, as in how the Werewolves slowly die out as they lose access to their main fount of power and purpose instead of some grand final battle? Yeah, but that's a cool Endtime Chronicle, not a good place to base a renewed gameline off of where you're suppose to explore this duality.

          Would the Shadow Lords finally outright challenging the Silver Fangs for rulership be a fascinating advancement of that subplot? Yeah in some ways, I just don't see a Werewolf repeat of the Camarilla and Sabbat as a good way to do that. In fact I see quite a number of tribes either split apart or largely sitting out the conflict. It could be a a great way to finally show the breaking of the Nation into tons of directions, and even giving rise to many going Ronin or even joining the Skindancers. At the same time this really railroads the game into narrower sets of plots and themes, which would be better served as optional subplot than the official progress of the metanarrative (again, much like what happened in Mage Revised).

          As for the Neo-Impergium, it's going to break the Veil and get Werewolves hunted down by humanity. The only use I could see for such a subplot is in how a large number of Garou are ultimately lured into dancing the Black Spiral. That plot could be cool, but again it feels more like a scenario from the Apocalypse book than pushing WtA as on going gameline forward.

          Yet, I'll admit, these plots could work if they were taken down a notch.

          Maybe if the Umbra was made into an even more alien and ravaged realm thanks to the Triat war and what's going on the in physical world, but Werewolves can still go there. It's just more hostile as spirit hierarchies the werewolves relied upon for centuries collapsed.

          The civil war shouldn't be outright war yet. Maybe it's heated up into more of a nuanced, multisided cold war that split the tribes between Shadow Lords, several Silver Fang Houses, and maybe even factions of the Children of Gaia and Glasswalkers who want to establish a new Garou order themselves? The Red Talons, Silent Striders, Uktena, Wendigo, Bone Gnawers and Stargazers are more than likely going to want to sit this shit show out. However, I could see many individuals up to septs of those tribes thinking they could gain an advantage or are tied to the conflict on a more personal basis (like Evan being packmates with Albrect). In this way, you have higher and more spelled out tensions than what was presented in earlier editions, but players could take this in numerous directions depending on what they want to do with their chronicles. Much more potential here.

          And the Neo-Impergium, maybe that one human-eating Red Talon Camp has gone out and tried to lure more and more lupus and sympathetic Garou of other breeds to their cause. Maybe it's turning into another large falling of the Garou to the Wyrm as they embrace hate and genocide, bringing about either a reckoning or chance for reconcilliation between the overwhelmingly Homid and Metis dominated tribes and the dying Lupus. It's another theme that has been there since 1st edition, just brought to a sharper focus with higher stakes. Yet it doesn't railroad any future WtA games down certain paths of play.

          These shake up the setting, bringing some of the major themes of werewolf into a sharper focus, but it also doesn't blow it up. Paradox's plans aren't going to draw in massive amounts of new blood. They'll just rip apart the already small existing fanbase and probably alienate any new players who dodn't want to deal with this shit.

          At the same time, I think whoever pushes the games forward has an opportunity to basically restart the games from a fresh and informed place. It's just it was always there from the beginning instead of trying to fill the past material with even more continuity shifts, etc. That's all I'm trying to say, based off the information that we have. I have an open mind, and I will judge the final product for what it is when and if it ever comes out. However, if they're going forward with what we've heard so far, I'll stick with the old books.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Onkwe View Post

            Sorry for text wall, but I have a lot to say.
            Yeah, the scenarios are very much End of Times scenarios. That matters in WtA more than in VtM for two reasons.

            One, Vampire can absolutely be played without 90% of its lore. The game does not suffer from it. WtA NEEDS its lore, given the garou are very much -not- typical werewolves. They have a living society with its own rules and morals. Unlike in Vampire, you CANNOT play the main story without being heavily involved in the sept politics. As WtA isn't about being a werewolf, it is about fighting a desperate battle.

            Second, the subtitle is Apocalypse. VtM is not called Vampire the Gehenna, because the game's focus isn't on that. WtA's is. So having the Apocalypse come and go feel rather... anti-climatic.


            Anyway, I'd really like that cold war scenario, because I feel there is very much a story in having the Shadow Lords declare for leadership. They have done a LOT to make up for the past and are adaptive over the Fangs who still mostly cling to the old ways. So having the rest of the Nation pick sides NOT based on accepting vs not accepting would be cool to see. Or not pick sides at all, because who in the end CARES.

            Another thing I wish more of, listening to Native American/other indogenous people some tribes are based of, more.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

              I admit I feel those titles are deserved by the previous WW management. Mostly, because the content presented (in the MET book that seemed to be heading for canon) and the tone. Impegrium 2, in modern days. A VERY uncomfortably handled mention of beastiality rape according to the book itself (changing ways) and bizarre changed to the tribes. Nevermind all the Vampire related stuff.

              So it is not edgelords as in 'I disagree with this content' but as in 'I feel this content was made to cause a kneejerk reaction more than give depth to the setting.'
              Originally posted by Onkwe
              I didn't mean to be pejoritive with 'Parawolf'. It just seems a handy term to differentiate the old school White Wolf company and Onyx Path from what White Wolf is producing under Paradox. NuWW sounds a lot more dismissive to me than Parawolf, but if that's what people meant by it, I'll stop using it.

              As for edgelord, I absolutely meant it as a pejoritive, because that's what the original proposals for W5 and what was actually done to V5 feel like. As Ana said, they come off as change for the sake to shock and awe in a juvenile manner rather than updating the setting or adding depth.
              I don't mind the textwall, but I won't quote all of it, if that is OK.

              I'll be honest in that, like the term 'SJW', I find any argument using the term 'edgelord' to be the hall mark of a lazy argument these days.

              In the case of V5, it seems as if we are creating an unwritten law that any attempt to present material that may be considered either salacious (which is a frequently just a matter of taste) or transgressional (which is at the heart of the entire horror genre) could potentially be called out as 'edgy'. Some things work possibly better than others, but one should not go in with any expectation of reading adult based horrific fiction with any sensibilities of not being offended by it. Horror doesn't work like that. It's not 'juvenile' automatically because some people dissapprove of it - it might just means those people are made uncomfortable by it. Moreover, if some people didn't dissaprove of it, then it probably wouldn't be worth writing within the horror genre anyway.

              Vampire and the WoD was originally written to be edgy within the horror genre but has, over the years, softened it's outlook to become more about building a complex series of dark urban fantasy settings with characters that share the tropes of horror fiction but not much else.

              V5 and the crew that took over White Wolf was an attempt to return an 'edge' to the WoD. You may like it or not, which is everybody's choice they can make for themselves. However, if the argument merely amounts to using pejoritive terms like 'edgelord', as a lazy attempt to brand what you you don't like rather than attempt to understand what it's trying to do, then I have little respect for it. Like I say, people who use the term 'edgelord' in such a way are no better than people who parrot out 'SJW' at every opportunity. To me, it's this sort of thing that is juvenile - not the attempt to do something creative or transgressional within the remit of a horror rpg.

              Now, as pointed out previously, we don't know anything about what a new Werewolf edition would be like, but considering the original game always had the spirit world at the core of the game's premise I doubt they will be doing anything to remove it. Where are you getting your information from?

              My hope about the game is more to do with the mechanics of the game, but I would note that I always felt there was a slight shift of tone from the more subtle gothic style of the 1st edition as there was once the went from 2nd edition owards.It may just be the art though.
              Last edited by Trippy; 03-05-2019, 12:23 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                I admit I feel those titles are deserved by the previous WW management. Mostly, because the content presented (in the MET book that seemed to be heading for canon) and the tone. Impegrium 2, in modern days. A VERY uncomfortably handled mention of beastiality rape according to the book itself (changing ways) and bizarre changed to the tribes. Nevermind all the Vampire related stuff.

                So it is not edgelords as in 'I disagree with this content' but as in 'I feel this content was made to cause a kneejerk reaction more than give depth to the setting.'



                NONE of the MET Vampire stuff was incorporated into V5. BNS was just as beholden to Parawolf for that as they were their werewolf. The only thing we should take AS A vision of their situation would be things in Changing Ways. And even that will have been multiple years apart.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Lian View Post




                  NONE of the MET Vampire stuff was incorporated into V5. BNS was just as beholden to Parawolf for that as they were their werewolf. The only thing we should take AS A vision of their situation would be things in Changing Ways. And even that will have been multiple years apart.
                  No, in Vampire that wasn't the case. But from what I understand, the slated writer for Werewolf did do a lot to give concepts to BNS. Not only that, but one of the changes to the tribes (Black Furies have non-metis male members) snuck into Changing Ways.

                  Trippy It wasn't a 'I don't like this content' type of thing for me. It was very much a 'the handling of this content is poor' thing.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki;
                    Trippy It wasn't a 'I don't like this content' type of thing for me. It was very much a 'the handling of this content is poor' thing.
                    And as I said, that is a matter of taste and the use of a pejorative label like ‘edgelord’ is a lazy, non argument in both cases.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                      No, in Vampire that wasn't the case. But from what I understand, the slated writer for Werewolf did do a lot to give concepts to BNS. Not only that, but one of the changes to the tribes (Black Furies have non-metis male members) snuck into Changing Ways.

                      Trippy It wasn't a 'I don't like this content' type of thing for me. It was very much a 'the handling of this content is poor' thing.

                      I am saying look only at Changing Ways. IT has enough issues. The "Nation splits" is probably a Larpism driven by the two major competing strains of larp "I want to play with Fera" and "FUCK YOU THIS IS WEREWOLF ONLY"

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                      • #41
                        I see many talk about "juvenile"
                        I'd just like to point out that there's nothing wrong per se in something being "juvenile"
                        At its core premise werewolf is quite the juvenile fantasy if you think about it

                        After a childhood of feeling "odd", "different", "out of place", in a world that's killing itself and seemingly gone crazy... when you hit adulthood you react by transforming in a big badass werewolf whose instinctive solution to problems is tearing them apart tooth and claw. You rage at the world
                        So yeah you can make it nuanced, interesting, deep, whatever you like
                        But at the core werewolves could be seen as teenage angst given free reins for violence, but with an heroic and noble agenda. So '90s
                        A possible interpretation, one of many, but it's there at the core

                        Don't get me wrong. I love it. Wholeheartedly
                        But it's still juvenile. In a very powerful way and it's great, but it is
                        But hey great stories can be metaphors about teenage rage. Very powerful ones

                        (of course WtA can also be a metaphorical journey about discovering how violence won't save the world and you need to "grow up" and abandon the old ways in order to save mother earth, but it would still make it a teenage rage metaphor story)

                        P.S. I surely hope that whole splitting up of the Nation will be handled better. I hate the camarilla/sabbat/indipendent type of division. If you want to split the nation just say that each tribe split too. So regardless which side the group is in, everyone can still play the tribe they want


                        101 simple plot ideas for VtM

                        "Ever since the Followers of Set rebranded themselves as The Ministry, I can barely keep a straight face around them." - Ramona #vamily

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