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Any reason for Truth of Gaia?

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  • Any reason for Truth of Gaia?

    I've been struggling with Truth of Gaia for a while, and the point is that I can't understand how to relate it with general lying.

    With this gift you're rolling some dice against some difficulty that may go up over 6 if you're talking to some consumed liar. But what do you do when you're evaluating if some guy is lying without the gift?
    You still roll INT+EMP, right? And the liar rolls MAN+SUB, so you have a contested roll rather than a fixed difficulty roll but the difficulties here should have 6 as a baseline for the both of them. So, why should I waste three xp to get Truth of Gaia? Both characters are rolling the same dice pools, so I could just save the points and buy an extra INT roll dot one session earlier and become better at detecting lies anyway.

    "You don't roll for regular lies, that's up to rp", yea I'd love to but the Truth Earring rises the difficulty of people lying to you so there must be a roll, otherwise it's a pointless fetish.
    Also, ToG only tells me what is definitely false and it's useless for omissions, while a standard regular roll might help me getting more subtext and general sense of distress.

    So, what's the whole point of the gift for you? How do you play this?

  • #2
    So I asked a friend and he brought up two things I get and one I don't.
    1) It is a seperate mechanic from the normal social systems. (I don't understand how that's a benefit, but okay.)

    2)The liar doesn't get to make the roll.
    This seems like a gamble benefit. As you brought up they could get fewer successes than the total, but if you don't trust the dice to not come out against you on that.

    3) They don't get to use any supernatural upgrades to their lies.
    Its their "natural" ability on the lie, they can't add fetishes. enchantments, or what have you to trying to trick you on this.

    He also jokingly pointed out that if nothing else failure does give you the free information that the individual is too skilled a liar even for you using your gifts.

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    • #3
      It's worth noting that at least in WtA, social rolls are rarely contested rolls. Credibility, Fast-Talk, and Interrogation are all normal rolls with the difficulty based on the target's stats, rather than each side rolling.

      So by the RAW... Truth of Gaia lets you roll and completely ignore their roll; on top of not having to deal with things like Pure Breed or the Persuasion Gift to avoid you knowing if someone's lying.

      If someone's lying to you and you don't have Truth of Gaia, you just have to trust in your stats (which vary depending on the circumstances you're being lied to) to be high enough that they don't roll well; and they can spend WP.

      With Truth of Gaia you get to roll and know that they're lying regardless of how well they lie. Yes it only detects things that the liar knows are true or false, but it's also just a a level 1 Gift.

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      • #4
        Less useful perhaps against the average joe, massively handy against any number of supernaturally boosted falsehoods. Also straight roll against often diff 6/7 vs opposed roll at possibly diff 6 or higher. Also really handy when dealing with Spirits as discerning the truth or falsehood of their "words" can be functionally impossible without this Gift.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
          So I asked a friend and he brought up two things I get and one I don't.
          1) It is a seperate mechanic from the normal social systems. (I don't understand how that's a benefit, but okay.)
          Probably the main upside is tied to the negation of supernatural bonuses (i.e, pure breed).

          but it's also just a a level 1 Gift.
          I guess that rolling 7 dice diff 7 rather than 7 dice vs 7 in a contested roll counts as a light advantage, but I believe it makes things harder at high difficulties: rolls at 9 or 10 have an astonishingly high botch chance while 7 vs 9 dice can still offer a decent chance of success. Adding this to its other limitation (detects only falsehood) it felt a bit unreliable even for a level 1 gift.

          Since we're already at this... the wording of the gift makes a bit unclear how to use it. I usually consider it activated for the scene but that's not RAW; do you guys roll for every statement the potential liars make? Do you make this reflexive?

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          • #6
            Again, with the caveat of ST calls, you are generally not talking about a contested roll. If someone is making a credibility roll, it's not 7 dice vs. 7 dice. It's the other person's 7 dice vs your difficulty of 7. There are a significant number of rolls presented in the text with the default assumption of the person doing the talking rolling, and the person being rolled against not rolling. So if you're the target of any of those actions without Truth of Gaia you don't roll at all.

            If the value there isn't apparent... I'm not sure what else to say. The Gifts are written with the assumption that you'll hew closer to the printed roll examples than not, so if your ST is constantly making things contested rolls when they're supposed to be one-sided rolls, it's going to skew the value of the Gifts involved. As well, Truth of Gaia basically wins regardless of the number of successes. If someone rolls 10 successes to lie, however convincing they might have been, 1 success with the Gift knows it was a lie anyway.

            It also don't just detect falsehood, it identifies what the speaker thinks is true, thinks is false, and isn't sure about.

            I generally run it as one activation roll per social "action." So if a character is telling a quick two sentence fast-talk lie, or a five minute oration, it's one activation of the Gift. It's just simpler that way. Given that it's not running in combat time, reflexive is largely meaningless. Taking a second or two to think about what someone just said in a social interaction is normal enough to not care.

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            • #7
              With an empathy roll you contest and can easily fail if the opponent has great social stats, and even if you succeed it is not guaranteed that you will understand you've been lied, but just that something is fishy and you will have to keep rolling. But with Truth of Gaia you can always know, its technically a gift that can give you the success without contest.
              Last edited by Story Letter; 02-08-2019, 11:27 AM.

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              • #8
                After doing a little digging I shall try to break it down some more.

                Heavy Arms is correct that Credibility is a roll that can be made by the lying party without contest. However it could be argued that "Dice rolls are for PCs" or that despite the Credibility roll something may seem not right and the player may try and look for tells and so forth. Either way you could easily get a Perception/Manipulation + Empathy roll (difficulty of targets Manipulation Subterfuge) vs Manipulation + Subterfuge (diff PC's Perception/Intelligence + Subterfuge) and with that you are looking for 3 net successes to actually get a proper lie detection and 5 successes to reasonably sift through the lies and truths and half truths.

                The Gift means you make one roll, no opposition with a difficulty of the targets Manipulation + Subterfuge just like in the Resisted action but only need a single success to get the details of lies and truths (as the target understand them).

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Moirdryd View Post
                  The Gift means you make one roll, no opposition with a difficulty of the targets Manipulation + Subterfuge just like in the Resisted action but only need a single success to get the details of lies and truths (as the target understand them).
                  But that was my point.
                  If we're talking about contested rolls VS truth of Gaia, then the gift offers a light advantage. If we're talking of simple rolls to detect lying VS truth of Gaia I just don't need the gift, I'll be raising the same stats and make do anyway with regular rolls that might also let my character realize if my target is hiding informations.

                  Isn't the gift even less useful if we don't consider contested rolls? It only has the upside of denying their supernatural bonuses.

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                  • #10
                    Maris Streck This Gift is extremely useful when you are against situations contested roll will highly fail.

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                    • #11
                      And the Gift is even more useful then we remember that the game frequently calls for non-contested rolls and the one being lied to isn't the one that rolls. The book doesn't say "the player rolls." The WoD isn't that kind of game. The talker rolls. You absolutely need the Gift if you don't want to believe people at their word based on their talking skills alone.

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                      • #12
                        Maris Streck I feel you've missed the point entirely. Yes you are raising the same stats, however, the ST uses the Credibility roll for the NPC. You get no roll what so ever to detect any lie at all. Now, if they allow for the contested roll (IF) then you need 3 successes to get anything more than a vague reading on the target (would could be nervousness, not lying, after all you have a Rage stat and they may well not). Now you are trying to tell me that you think you're going to do better with "Perception/Manipulation + Empathy roll (difficulty of targets Manipulation Subterfuge) vs Manipulation + Subterfuge (diff of your character's Perception/Intelligence + Subterfuge)" than rolling Int + Empathy roll (same diff), with no opposition/resisted roll and requiring 1 success?...

                        Or to run the numbers... There you are with your appropriately social Philodox. You've got the social traits at 4 and the Empathy at 4 and the guys your talking to, well he's good but he isn't you with 2 and 3. So you get your 8 dice @ diff5 vs his 6 dice @diff 8 with the following breakdown:
                        1 success he can't keep eye contact with you, 2 successes he's stumbling over his words, repeating himself a little, 3 successes yeah he's lying, 4 successes his speech pattern altered when he mentioned talking to his gang contacts, 5 successes they told him something different to what he's telling you and the story is rehearsed/being made up on the fly/whatever.

                        So far so good, with those numbers you'll probably get the 3 successes fairly easy, possibly 4 or 5 without much trouble. But none of that's solid, one good roll form the sleeze and you could be non-the wiser. Bump his stats a bit, 3 & 3 which is pretty good you;re still likely to hit 3 successes.

                        Now lets make the guy a bit better, he's a professional double talker with stats matching yours. Now there's even odds whether you notice anything untoward at all. Getting less good.

                        Lets add a little supernatural element to the mix. Perhaps something close an Enticer maybe, that's a 9 dice pool, now the odds are against you, then it uses a Power, 11 dice and you;re rolling against difficulty 11, so 10 (maybe 9 if you've got a nice ST who uses capped difficulties) or maybe it's got something like Persuasion instead and is rolling its 9 dice against difficulty 6/7. Or it's got both, or it's a Garou with Purebreed/Persusion/Totem effect or all three.

                        Now then I have my 'Dox. She's not as highly statted as yours. Only 3 in each. But I have Truth of Gaia. Against Liar #1 1 I roll 6 dice vs diff 5, #2 is 6 dice vs diff 6 #3 is 6 dice against difficulty 8 against the Enticer I'm up against difficulty 9 or 10 too for sure. But in all of these cases i need 1 success to get a better info read than you can get with 3. 1 WP point on any of these rolls gives me the works. Plus as it's not opposed their Persuasion style effects don't work, their Purebreed effects don't work and depending on what the bonus is the Totem effect may not even work.
                        Last edited by Moirdryd; 02-09-2019, 09:26 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          And the Gift is even more useful then we remember that the game frequently calls for non-contested rolls and the one being lied to isn't the one that rolls. The book doesn't say "the player rolls." The WoD isn't that kind of game. The talker rolls. You absolutely need the Gift if you don't want to believe people at their word based on their talking skills alone.

                          Thats exactly the very next thing I wanted to say !

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                          • #14
                            Something else to consider?

                            Truth of Gaia isn't just about finding liars.

                            Let's say you're a Philodox with really high stats, and things like Credibility rolls against you are 9-10 base difficulty. You're trying to moderate between to Garou neither of whom have great stats. Neither is overtly lying to you, but is mixing in speculation that will ping as neither true or false to the Gift to make their case look better. Since they have shit odds of success, significant odds of botching, and being the most convincing isn't the same as being the most truthful... this Gift is a huge benefit for sorting things out. You know what each thinks is true, and what each knows they can't back up. Cut straight through their rolls and be the judge your Auspice calls you to be.

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                            • #15
                              Heavy Arms well there is also Reality's Path.

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