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Do female Hyaena Ajaba have...you know...

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  • Do female Hyaena Ajaba have...you know...

    Pseudo-penises.

  • Eldagusto
    replied
    And I would include Mokole in the Metis numbers, their equivalent of a Metis are conceived but they are Stillborn angry ghosts. Its stigmatized to create a restless Dragon ghost for them...

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    To be Fair Garou and Ratkin grossly outnumber all the other Fera. In fact if you combine both of them they would outnumber all the other Fera combined, and if you didn't include the Anansi they would even more grossly outnumber all the others.

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  • Synapse
    replied
    I see. If they aren't stigmatized indeed it shouldn't be a flaw available for them. Forgive me, I haven't played with non-garou in quite a while.

    You can restrict what I said to garou and ratkin

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Synapse View Post
    If you want to chalk the word deformity to just stigma, well, metis are stigmatized.

    Ajaba Metis aren't stigmatized... so any deformity that would only be a social penalty for other Metis wouldn't be a good fit for that aspect of it anyway.

    I am fine with calling it a deformity because it fits the bill of "off-model + causes problems".
    What problem does being intersex cause an Ajaba Metis? How many of them wouldn't be better represented as a more specific co-morbid disorder?

    This is also in accordance with the fact that Metis are the consequence of a (magical, although this doesn't matter for this particular topic) incestuous relation, which is a strong factor for causing defects.
    Has has been go over countless times in other threads? This whole line of reasoning makes no sense and is contradicted in the text.

    The metis' suffering due to these differences are almost exclusively caused by their own people rejecting them.
    Um, the majority of them suffer actual physical disabilities, not just social stigma

    This is shown very clearly a problem with most bete societies.
    No, it isn't.

    Of all the Fera, only the Garou and Ratkin have a strong anti-Metis bias. The Bastet are weakly anti-Metis but too individualistic to enforce any social inequality as a whole. All of the other Fera either can't produce Metis, or have no social stigma around them. Two of them actually consider their Metis superior (Kitsune and Nagah)

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Synapse View Post
    Such is part and parcel of the experience.
    One of the common tropes of the gothic horror genre from which the World of Darkness derives is the idea of 'the sins of the father being visited upon the son' (or whichever genders fit), the idea that a character will suffer greatly for some past action they had nothing to do with. Family curses, inherited insanity, inhuman heritage, or even something as mundane as what happens in VC Andrews's Flowers in the Attic. And like the kids in that book, metis are punished - by nature and society - for their parents' incestuous acts. It is very much not fair, but that is the oppressive nature of the Gothic part of a Gothic-Punk universe. (But by the same token, the Punk half is about rebelling against all that oppression and chains of the past, including metis standing up for themselves and demanding respect. And if in your games, you want to draw parallels between metis and people with birth defects, those born intersex, mixed race children, or any other group that has suffered from societal prejudices and had to struggle for acceptance and respect, that's one of the reasons they exist in the game.)

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  • Synapse
    replied
    If you want to chalk the word deformity to just stigma, well, metis are stigmatized. I did bring it this up.

    Do you want to just talk about something randomly "off-model"? Then every single difference, change, mutation and fault fits. From red hair to missing brain. It's not a very useful definition, since it's too broad to do anything but acknowledge change.

    I am fine with calling it a deformity because it fits the bill of "off-model + causes problems". This is also in accordance with the fact that Metis are the consequence of a (magical, although this doesn't matter for this particular topic) incestuous relation, which is a strong factor for causing defects.
    And I am fine with calling it a flaw because the game calls "flaws" many things that hinder your character - including externalities like social stigma.

    The books treat this sensibly enough: The metis' suffering due to these differences are almost exclusively caused by their own people rejecting them. This is shown very clearly a problem with most bete societies.






    So, back to topic: Yeah. Ajaba females should have pseudo-penises in their animal forms. War forms and humanoid forms wouldn't.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Synapse View Post
    You don't have to like it, but it doesn't change the fact that biological intersex is literally a deviation caused from errors and atavisms in the organism's formative processes.
    I think it could be reasonable to ask for this to not turn into a debate about the problematic elements of the Metis (we just had one a month ago).

    This... not so much. Red hair is a genetic "deviation" and there's a good reason why it's not a magical deformity. If being a Metis with red hair caused you to have to pay double freebie/XP for Gnosis, and all Gnosis rolls were +3 diff because of how red hair causes soullessness, I highly doubt anyone would be defending that being in the books.

    Having it as a consequence of an act that is established to cause deformities only makes sense.
    It only makes sense in you consider an intersex condition a deformity... which is the problem in the first place.

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  • Synapse
    replied
    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
    Really not a fan of “being intersex” being thrown out as a magical deformity.
    You don't have to like it, but it doesn't change the fact that biological intersex is literally a deviation caused from errors and atavisms in the organism's formative processes.
    Having it as a consequence of an act that is established to cause deformities only makes sense.


    And if you want to talk about what that means to the players, well...
    • Please separate players form characters. WE know there's no moral fault in not being "perfect", for whatever that's worth.
    • Something "bad" can be portrayed without being endorsed by the players.
      • For example: the game is terrifyingly violent, yet we accept the portrayal of such violence in-game. The same can be said of any subject.

    This is particularly important with bete. They are very much a collectivist extreme compared to humans. Your role in the grander setting of your tribe and your world is more important than your desires, your very life. Your freedoms are only acknowledged within the constraints of your duty. If you cannot or will not fulfill an important role, your kin WILL think less of you.

    This gives the conformists strength.
    This gives the outliers suffering.
    Such is part and parcel of the experience.
    Last edited by Synapse; 06-07-2019, 10:56 AM. Reason: formatting

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  • Story Letter
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
    In the hybrid forms.
    Not if it is an obstacle to combat prowess. Like female garou boobs.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    The older Ajaba mentions in the books said Hermaphroditism is a common deformity for Metis.
    It's admittedly been a fair while since I read their section of the original Bastet book or the revised Changing Breeds book, but the impression I've had over the years is that their metis are frequently hermaphroditic not as a deformity but rather because of the role biological sex plays in their auspice system and how they are separated from it. This may be more head canon than what is actually there though, as I don't have either book at hand to check.

    Fun Fact: UC Berkeley has had a hyena breeding colony for scientific research purposes for the past 30 years. Sadly, it appears to be in the process of shutting down due to lack of funding. Some effort is being made to relocate the project to Texas. But for those of you who'd like to try an Ajaba centered chronicle in California, there you go.
    Last edited by No One of Consequence; 06-06-2019, 02:49 PM.

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  • atamajakki
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    The older Ajaba mentions in the books said Hermaphroditism is a common deformity for Metis.
    Really not a fan of “being intersex” being thrown out as a magical deformity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eldagusto
    replied
    The older Ajaba mentions in the books said Hermaphroditism is a common deformity for Metis.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post

    I'm sorry, what do you mean? I'm not sure I follow.
    Clitoromegaly or macroclitoris is the technical term.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
    In hyena form, of course. In human form, no. In the hybrid forms, well, whatever you and your game group would like.
    IIRC, the Crinos and other half-n-half forms are all meant to be combat forms (thou the Corax might disagree), so any external genitalia is retracted inside the body. At least that's how I remember Ethan Skemp explaining it once.

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