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Individually speaking, are Bastet stronger than Garou?

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  • Individually speaking, are Bastet stronger than Garou?

    Art and entertainment has often exaggerated the strength and ferocity of the wolf. In nature, if a lone wolf were to fight a tiger or a lion, they wouldn't stand a chance.
    Does the same apply to their supernatural cousins? Without taking Gifts into account, how does a Khan, Simba, Bagheera or Pumonca measure to a similarly ranked Garou, even an Ahroun?
    Last edited by HardestadtTheEvenYounger; 04-20-2019, 02:13 PM.

  • #2
    It feels like your asking for a lot of effort from others - why not try generating two minmaxed characters yourself and post them here to see how they compare?

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    • #3
      Gifts ARE what separates an Ahroun from a Ragabash. Outside gifts they have the same access to traits.




      Garou haveGalabro) 2 str 2 stamina, (Crinos) 4 str, 1 dex, 3 stamina. (Hispo) 3 str, 2 dex, 3 stamina (Lupus) 1 str, 2 dex 2 stamina
      Khan have: (Sokoto) 2 strgh, 1 dex 2 stam (Crinos 3 strth, 2 dex 3 stam (Chatro) 4 str, 2 dex, 3 stam (Feline) 3 str, 2 dex 2 stamina.

      SO asside from that weird situation in Crinos where Garou are stronger over all Khan are generally at least as strong or stronger... hell the Beast form traits are almost as good as Garou Crinos.

      Simba have roughtly the same bonuses as Khans, they are weaker in Feline.

      Pumonca (Sokot) 1 str, 2 Dex, 1 stam (Crinos) 2 str, 3 dex 3 stam (Chartro) 3 str 3 dex, 2 stam (Feline) 2 str, 2 dex 2 stam

      Balam are roughly the same as Pumonca but trade some dex for strength.

      BagheeraSokoto) 1 str, 1 dex, 2 stam.(Crinos) 3 strgh, 2 Dex, 3 stam. (Chatro) 2 str 3 dex, 3 stam) Feline 1 str, 3 dex, 2 stam.


      assuming You have two of roughly on par human stats I'd say the Bastet generally shake out best each time. Dex is better than strength generally.

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      • #4
        Well, I was wondering more how they compare lore-wise, rather than mechanic-wise. It seems something worth discussing.
        We know that, as of W20, Crinos gives a Werewolf Strength +4, Dexterity +1, Stamina +3. Meanwhile, Bagheera and Balam have Strength +3, Dexterity +3, Stamina +3; Bubasti, Ceilican and Qualmi have Strength +1, Dexterity +3, Stamina +1; Khan have Strength +5, Dexterity +2, Stamina +3; Pumonca Strength +3, Dexterity +3, Stamina +4; Simba Strength +4, Dexterity +2, Stamina +3; and finally the Swara Strength +2, Dexterity +4, Stamina +3.

        So, all around, the Bastet are simply much more graceful than the Garou, which makes sense. But, strengthwise, the wolves are more powerful than most Bastet, they match the Simba and are slightly weaker than the Khan.
        However, shouldn't the felines be much stronger? Like I said before, a wolf is simply not going to match an lion or a tiger; even a cougar would probably win if they were to fight.

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        • #5
          Unfortunately this probably covers the mystical side of the shape shifters as well as the natural one. Take a wolf and a lion with the same size, weight,and physical stats who would win ?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
            Unfortunately this probably covers the mystical side of the shape shifters as well as the natural one. Take a wolf and a lion with the same size, weight,and physical stats who would win ?
            All things being equal, the lion would probably still win due to having claws; it's simply more heavily armed than the wolf. Of course, the same doesn't apply to Changing Breeds who almost all have clawed hands and feet in their Crinos form.

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            • #7
              Generaly war forms are monster forms, not mere animals, but things out of nightmare, its probably a headache to find out which beast monster should be more scary. Compare garou to gurahl, yes gurahl are stronger and tankier but if the gurahl doesn't kill the garou in one swipe the garou might cripple kill the gurahl with Rage actions, the opposite is highly likely to happen as well, even Rokea warform is weaker than Garou warform, but sharks are obviously much stronger than wolves, yet strength alone is not always enough.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                Well, I was wondering more how they compare lore-wise, rather than mechanic-wise..[/FONT]
                Lorewise Garou only really ovelap with the weaker bastet. They were functionally driven from Africa with minor exceptions. They don't seem to have done particularly well in the War of Shame most of their "successes" appear to be in Europe.

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                • #9
                  As the saying goes, a lone wolf is a dead wolf. They are designed to work in groups, and for the Garou, the pack is their greatest strength and edge against their enemies. Bastet, on the other hand, are designed to function mainly on their own for long periods of time. (Exactly how well this is reflected in their various form bonuses/stats is a never ending debate that has been going on since about a week after the first edition Players' Guide dropped.)

                  In a purely one on one physical match up, a Khan or Simba could probably win, while Balam, Baghera, and Pumonica would probably hold their own pretty well. But Garou tend to prefer to gang up on people. At least that's my general impression.

                  However, Swara will always win hands down in a cute-off, unless facing a Kitsune. Then they tie.


                  What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                  Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                    As the saying goes, a lone wolf is a dead wolf. They are designed to work in groups, and for the Garou, the pack is their greatest strength and edge against their enemies. Bastet, on the other hand, are designed to function mainly on their own for long periods of time. (Exactly how well this is reflected in their various form bonuses/stats is a never ending debate that has been going on since about a week after the first edition Players' Guide dropped.)
                    .
                    Except SImba who are ALSO designed to function in fairly large groups


                    Honestly I'm kind of amazed Garou beat the Grondir Boars are also creatures of large groups and.. boars are scarier than wolves.

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                    • #11
                      Yeah, the Simba are kind of the exception, though the lion social structure is a bit different than canines (something Brian Campbell used to go on and on about ad nauseam on every single WW message board and forum). This is part of what made the Endless Storm so dangerous, IIRC.

                      Which, in a setting with such a mythic-creation style cosmology as Werewolf, raises the odd question of do lions form prides because the Simba were trying to mimic the Garou after the war of rage? (Probably not, but it's interesting to ponder.)

                      And I have occasionally toyed with the idea that the Grondr fell to the Wyrm somehow before the War, which caused them to start dying out when Boar turned his back on them (which would explain why he still adopts Garou packs and caerns).
                      Last edited by No One of Consequence; 04-21-2019, 03:12 AM.


                      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                      • #12
                        The "war forms" can be easily changed if you want. They're not based on myth or folklore (all were-animals could switch between a human form and animal form, with nothing inbetween), but 20th century movie special effects as actors in makeup could follow a script while animals could not. It's not until the seventies and eighties that the idea of a werewolf as being a combination of man and wolf really took such hold that depictions in literature and movies (because of advances in special effects) showed something like a crinos form. So if you wanted to make some Bastet be individually more powerful than a Garou in their war form, I don't think it changes much.

                        At the same time, if you want to keep it the same, but explain why Garou are stronger than most Bastet, you could simply say it is because Gaia wanted Garou to be her warriors, but gave the Bastet other missions, which is why Garou are stronger than they "should" be based on their animal breed. After all, if you start applying that kind of logic, the war forms of the entire line of Fera stop making sense - Gurahl should be far stronger than any other Changing Breed, and breeds like Corax, Ratkin or Ananasi should be far weaker than what they are.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                          breeds like Corax, Ratkin or Ananasi should be far weaker than what they are.
                          Nonsense! Everyone knows that having the "proportional strength of a spider" will allow you to lift at least 15 tons! And don't give me any of that "scaling" silliness!


                          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                            At the same time, if you want to keep it the same, but explain why Garou are stronger than most Bastet, you could simply say it is because Gaia wanted Garou to be her warriors, but gave the Bastet other missions, which is why Garou are stronger than they "should" be based on their animal breed. After all, if you start applying that kind of logic, the war forms of the entire line of Fera stop making sense - Gurahl should be far stronger than any other Changing Breed, and breeds like Corax, Ratkin or Ananasi should be far weaker than what they are.
                            This.

                            Werewolf is a game about animism, which is heavily about symbolism. It's why there's a logic that Kitsune and Nuwisha are not Garou tribes, and Mokole are more than just werecrocs. I think this is only an issue because there's still a lot of legacy remaining from early installment weirdness like the 'Garou gene', and not balancing the animistic aspects of things like the Metis deformaties, Silver Fang inbreeding, and a lot of aspects of the Wyrm. The latter could REALLY have used some more Lovecraft and Evil Dead in the mix than Chudd and Tromaville.

                            It's not that 'weird science' sucks. It has its place (look at how Hellboy beautifully melds comic booky pulp science, folklore, and Cthulu Mythos), but it doesn't seem like until Mage, Wraith, and Changeling came along that things were tackled in a more obviously mystical manner. Those games certainly did for me. Take a gander at some 1st edition books, you can spot a lot of attempts at using psuedoscience to explain things, even in the Umbra at times. I don't blame the writers. Sorry to use a Mage term here, but it really is baked into the general Western paradigm that the Devs, and I gather almost everyone participating on this forum, grew up in to one degree or another.
                            Last edited by Onkwe; 04-21-2019, 05:45 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
                              Werewolf is a game about animism, which is heavily about symbolism.
                              In the chronicles I ST, I make the Realm (i.e. the "real" world) very rational, but the Umbra is run according to fairy tale logic. And as the Gauntlet thins/weakens, it is more and more likely that fairy tale logic will have some real effect. (At caerns, it should probably be dominant.) Of course, that means as we go back in time when the Gauntlet was much weaker, or even to the point where the Gauntlet did not exist and the Realm/Umbra was actually a single entity, that rational explanations end up not being the correct ones.

                              In the one online game I played, my PC was a very mystical Garou, and I would constantly explain things using fairy tale logic, and I don't think any of the other PCs took me seriously when I went on my rants. The Glass Walker PCs in particular, probably thought he was nuts. But he had a high rank in Ancestors, so he remembered how life was like for his ancestors, and he knew absolutely that is how the world used to work.

                              The latter could REALLY have used some more Lovecraft and Evil Dead in the mix than Chudd and Tromaville.
                              I think one of the major weaknesses of the game is how the Wyrm and various Wyrm minions have been depicted. There are definitely some nice ideas in published materials, but I have made so many changes in order to have a more terrifying depiction of the Wyrm. I end up adopting a lot of materials and ideas from the Call of Cthulhu RPG (among many others) while doing my best to rub off the serial #s of everything I've stolen.

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