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Individually speaking, are Bastet stronger than Garou?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
    , and breeds like Corax, Ratkin or Ananasi should be far weaker than what they are.
    Corax and Ratkin don't gain strength bonuses. SO are you arguing turning into a slightly larger Ratman should make you weaker than normal?

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    • #17
      I am not arguing for anything. It's just if someone wants the war forms to be aligned according to the proportional strength or physical natures of their natural animal form, then yes, the war forms of Ratkin and Corax should be less strong than normal human because ravens and rats are vastly inferior in strength not only to humans, but to the animal forms of the other Changing Breeds.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
        I am not arguing for anything. It's just if someone wants the war forms to be aligned according to the proportional strength or physical natures of their natural animal form, then yes, the war forms of Ratkin and Corax should be less strong than normal human because ravens and rats are vastly inferior in strength not only to humans, but to the animal forms of the other Changing Breeds.

        But its Human+ features not human Minus. Things. Also many of the Bastet Breeds consider The Dire form the proper War form.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
          Well, I was wondering more how they compare lore-wise, rather than mechanic-wise.
          Lore-wise, a werewolf is stronger than a werecougar because that werewolf is a Garou and they have a purpose. Their relative power is a mix of what makes sense physically with what makes sense for their Gaia-defined roles.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Lian View Post

            Corax and Ratkin don't gain strength bonuses. SO are you arguing turning into a slightly larger Ratman should make you weaker than normal?
            Although, it would be kind of weirdly ironic if the Ratkin Glabro form looked like some sort of emaciated drug fiend. 🤔


            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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            • #21
              I mean, the game isn't called Assorted Werecats: the Apocalypse, so you can see why there might be a certain amount of favoritism for the garou built in from the start. In a meta sense, I think werewolves are vastly more prominent in the legends and folklore of at least Western culture than other types of shapeshifters.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                In a meta sense, I think werewolves are vastly more prominent in the legends and folklore of at least Western culture than other types of shapeshifters.
                Almost every culture has some sort of man-turns-into-animal myth, and that animal is typically the most powerful predator in the region - what would be the most dangerous animal to men, something which might kill humans or eat valuable livestock. So in northern Eurasia, that is the wolf. In India, it is the tiger. In sub-Saharan Africa, it is the lion. Near the Sahara it is the hyena. In Latin America, is it is the jaguar. In these cases, it is some kind of malevolent sorcerer or witch that turns into the animal to bedevil people.

                There's also a few cases where outright spirits or faerie type creatures assume forms of both animals and man, but these are often less predatory, but more mischievous.

                However, some of the Changing Breeds are simply out of fantasy - wereravens and ratkins are more Fantasy D&D than anything in folklore.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                  However, some of the Changing Breeds are simply out of fantasy - wereravens and ratkins are more Fantasy D&D than anything in folklore.
                  I would say Raven/Bird shifters have some solid folklore.. but can't say the same about Rats.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
                    Art and entertainment has often exaggerated the strength and ferocity of the wolf. In nature, if a lone wolf were to fight a tiger or a lion, they wouldn't stand a chance.
                    Does the same apply to their supernatural cousins? Without taking Gifts into account, how does a Khan, Simba, Bagheera or Pumonca measure to a similarly ranked Garou, even an Ahroun?
                    Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
                    It feels like your asking for a lot of effort from others - why not try generating two minmaxed characters yourself and post them here to see how they compare?
                    I chip in, I post my combat minimaxed Garou:

                    Ugly MacAngry
                    Breed: Metis
                    Auspice: Ahroun
                    Tribe: Children of Gaia
                    Nature: Bravo
                    Demeanor: Big Bad Wolf
                    Rank: 1
                    Physical: Strength 4 (6/8/7/5), Dexterity 5 (5/6/7/7), Stamina 1 (3/4/4/3)
                    Social: Charisma 4, Manipulation 1 (0/0/0/0), Appearance 1 (0/0/1/1)
                    Mental: Perception 2, Intelligence 1, Wits 5
                    Talents: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Brawl (Claws) 5, Intimidation 1, Primal-Urge 3
                    Skills: Melee 3, Stealth 3, Survival 3
                    Knowledges: Occult 2, Rituals 3
                    Backgrounds: Ancestors 5
                    Rage: 10
                    Gnosis: 3
                    Willpower: 10
                    Glory: 2
                    Honor: 1
                    Wisdom: 0
                    Metis deformity: Tough Hide, Eyes of Darkness
                    Gifts: (1) Primal Anger, Razor Claws, Resist Pain
                    Rites: None
                    Merits: Silver Tolerance
                    Flaws: Double Jeopardy, Nightmares, Pack Mentality, Impatient


                    All freebies spent on Brawl, Rage, and Willpower; this fellow can:
                    • Win Initiative often. Max Dexterity + Max Wits
                    • Attack several times per turn Max Rage + Primal Anger
                    • Hit enemies consistently. Max Dexterity + Max Brawl + Specialty
                    • Do large amounts of damage High Strength + Claws + Razor Claws + Attack roll bonus
                    • Get several automatic successes. Max Willpower
                    • Ignore most forms of mind control. Max Willpower
                    • Recover Willpower after each fight. Bravo
                    • Get dice for an Ability it lacks once per game session. Ancestors
                    • Regenerate in every form. Metis
                    • Soak silver damage in any form. Silver Tolerance
                    • Soak low to mid amounts of damage. Min Stamina + Tough Hide
                    • Ignore all wound penalties for a scene. Resist Pain
                    • See perfectly in darkness. Eyes of Darkness
                    • Work better when accompanied by his pack. Pack Mentality
                    • Buy future traits as cheap as possible.
                    • Acquire easily most of the best combat gifts at each level: (1) Jam Weapon, Rhythm of War (Changing Ways); (2) Spirit of the Fray, Luna's Armor, Burrow, Calm; (3) The Cleaving Hoof (Tribebook), Silver Claws, Dazzle. Metis + Ahroun + Children of Gaia

                    Some tweaks:
                    1. Switch Pack Mentality for any flaw that requires a Willpower roll (which it will almost certainly pass). This flaw is a boon most of the time if you have a pack, but if it is a one-on-one fight, it will be disadvantageous.
                    2. Switch the Razor Claws for Rhythm of War if there is risk of the opponent using stunning from massive damage or knockdown.
                    3. Switch Strength and Stamina scores, so it will be able to soak a lot, and still do medium damage with the Attack roll bonus. However, it is more optimal to hit first and often, that to hit mediocrely for longer.


                    Add rank as you wish, to see how it stands against opponents.
                    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 05-14-2019, 03:05 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lian View Post

                      Corax and Ratkin don't gain strength bonuses. SO are you arguing turning into a slightly larger Ratman should make you weaker than normal?
                      Corax and Ratkin do gain Strength +1, at least as of W20.

                      I am not arguing for anything. It's just if someone wants the war forms to be aligned according to the proportional strength or physical natures of their natural animal form, then yes, the war forms of Ratkin and Corax should be less strong than normal human because ravens and rats are vastly inferior in strength not only to humans, but to the animal forms of the other Changing Breeds.
                      I wouldn't go so far. Obviously any werecreature should have an advantage over humans in their war form. Making this thread, I was thinking only in terms of how each Breeds compares to each other when using their natural forms as a basis for comparison.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Lian View Post

                        I would say Raven/Bird shifters have some solid folklore.. but can't say the same about Rats.
                        The closest I've heard of are rat yokai that can turn into people. And I'm not even sure how common and/or modern those are.


                        What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                        Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post


                          But its Human+ features not human Minus. Things. Also many of the Bastet Breeds consider The Dire form the proper War form.
                          There is no dire wolf form. Dire wolves only got about the size of mid-large size dog breeds, not horses. I blame AD&D 2nd edition's Monstrous Compendium for the mix-up; 1e had worgs as huge neo-dire wolves and made distinction that they were Size L to the dire wolf's Size M, but in the aforementioned 2e book, for whatever reason, the dire wolf became L and the worgs shrunk down to Size M.

                          (Also, the dire wolf was a strictly New World offshoot of a sister species to the gray wolf, and the dire wolves died out around the time W:tA has the Impergium starting, so none of the tribes outside the Pure Ones should have had a clue that they even existed, much less have any shared hybrid gray wolf/dire wolf blood... which would make them pretty much indistinguishable from a slightly beefed up Lupus form).

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                          • #28
                            For the Pedants. Many Breeds consider the form between the beast form and Crinos form that matches up with the D&D concept of a Dire version of the creature as their true combat form, this not scientifically accurate but its short hand. When you compare the Bastet in "Form between Crinos and Felis" many are quite favorably statted in comparson to Werewolves in Either Crinos or Hispo.

                            Now Crinos has the advantage of using weapons, but they are generally a rarity among Garou and the Khan being Eastern SHifters generally see the use of weapons as the "not serious" way of attacking someone(Like if you stab them well they heal. but CLaws hurt!). So with this in mind in a white room situation with roughly comparable characters the Khan should generally murder the Individual Garou.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Lian View Post
                              Now Crinos has the advantage of using weapons, but they are generally a rarity among Garou and the Khan being Eastern SHifters generally see the use of weapons as the "not serious" way of attacking someone(Like if you stab them well they heal. but CLaws hurt!). So with this in mind in a white room situation with roughly comparable characters the Khan should generally murder the Individual Garou.
                              In a white-room there's also probably a white-den realm that the Khan can jump in and out of with ease to attack from surprise as well.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                                For the Pedants. Many Breeds consider the form between the beast form and Crinos form that matches up with the D&D concept of a Dire version of the creature as their true combat form, this not scientifically accurate but its short hand.
                                That parlance was only used in 3e and 4e. While everything after 2nd is under the mistaken assumption that the dire wolf is some kind of horse-sized canid, other editions besides 4th and 5th call them animals, giant. This includes the present edition of 5e, incidentally; while the PHB slips up from time to time with mention of "dire rats" in the rogue class writeup, the MM calls them giant rats.

                                This is also setting aside that the setting is not supposed to be akin to D&D, even if KotE dragged its version of Tou Mu over from Deities and Demigods, and Nuwisha got most of its totems from the same source, right down to the same typo of Chung Kuei as Chung Kuel. One could argue that Nuwisha was trying to go for some kind of meta-humor about taking the game too seriously; I would argue that it was just poor research.

                                When you compare the Bastet in "Form between Crinos and Felis" many are quite favorably statted in comparson to Werewolves in Either Crinos or Hispo.
                                Not very sensibly, though. Bastet have way too much "graceful feline!" hype built into their forms, which are described as being larger than forms of the Garou across the board. Keep in mind that lions and tigers are about the same size as bears, but their associated Bastet tribes never take a hit to Dexterity like the forms of Gurahl.

                                Now Crinos has the advantage of using weapons, but they are generally a rarity among Garou and the Khan being Eastern SHifters generally see the use of weapons as the "not serious" way of attacking someone(Like if you stab them well they heal. but CLaws hurt!). So with this in mind in a white room situation with roughly comparable characters the Khan should generally murder the Individual Garou.
                                I don't think that the Beast Courts fetish culture described in Hammer and Klaive can really be taken at face value. It clashes with prior descriptions so strongly that it basically comes from out of nowhere, ascribing to the entire system the opinions of two Garou tribes, one of which is very strongly misrepresents (Hakken as originally described were just fine with fetish weapons, just so long as no one makes a katana or wakizashi out of one), the other one was in the Garou Nation primarily until Revised.

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