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Individually speaking, are Bastet stronger than Garou?

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  • Individually speaking, are Bastet stronger than Garou?

    Art and entertainment has often exaggerated the strength and ferocity of the wolf. In nature, if a lone wolf were to fight a tiger or a lion, they wouldn't stand a chance.
    Does the same apply to their supernatural cousins? Without taking Gifts into account, how does a Khan, Simba, Bagheera or Pumonca measure to a similarly ranked Garou, even an Ahroun?
    Last edited by HardestadtTheEvenYounger; 04-20-2019, 02:13 PM.

  • HardestadtTheEvenYounger
    replied
    I have been reading about the World of Darkness for somewhere around six years now and I only understand like 50% of the terms being used right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

    My 4th Generation True Brujah Stargazer Abomination Do Master ninja-assassin/supermodel with twin moonsilver katanas and twin .50cal Desert Eagles shooting dragon's breath rounds is way more powerful than your Risen Mokole HIT Mark cyborg Navy SEAL computer hacker with Primium-shooting minigun and Enchanted holy relic chainsaw.
    ...Shih Khan Bastet Face of the Gods Hungry Dead who played the Yama Kings for a mountain of free investments and soul treatments and contains an Earthbound that can't fight back or break out but just serves as a power supply and hands over Lore use whenever necessary and boosts up Attributes with its Urges!

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
    You know, the one thing that tells me that there is still fresh blood coming to this game is that posts like these still keep popping up. People still want to figure out the "strongest". At the end of the day it really doesn't matter in a game where everything exists to facilitate the players to be the narrative nexus in a designed storyline.

    God I'm old.
    My 4th Generation True Brujah Stargazer Abomination Do Master ninja-assassin/supermodel with twin moonsilver katanas and twin .50cal Desert Eagles shooting dragon's breath rounds is way more powerful than your Risen Mokole HIT Mark cyborg Navy SEAL computer hacker with Primium-shooting minigun and Enchanted holy relic chainsaw.

    Leave a comment:


  • Asmodai
    replied
    You know, the one thing that tells me that there is still fresh blood coming to this game is that posts like these still keep popping up. People still want to figure out the "strongest". At the end of the day it really doesn't matter in a game where everything exists to facilitate the players to be the narrative nexus in a designed storyline.

    God I'm old.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    For the Pedants. Many Breeds consider the form between the beast form and Crinos form that matches up with the D&D concept of a Dire version of the creature as their true combat form, this not scientifically accurate but its short hand.
    That parlance was only used in 3e and 4e. While everything after 2nd is under the mistaken assumption that the dire wolf is some kind of horse-sized canid, other editions besides 4th and 5th call them animals, giant. This includes the present edition of 5e, incidentally; while the PHB slips up from time to time with mention of "dire rats" in the rogue class writeup, the MM calls them giant rats.

    This is also setting aside that the setting is not supposed to be akin to D&D, even if KotE dragged its version of Tou Mu over from Deities and Demigods, and Nuwisha got most of its totems from the same source, right down to the same typo of Chung Kuei as Chung Kuel. One could argue that Nuwisha was trying to go for some kind of meta-humor about taking the game too seriously; I would argue that it was just poor research.

    When you compare the Bastet in "Form between Crinos and Felis" many are quite favorably statted in comparson to Werewolves in Either Crinos or Hispo.
    Not very sensibly, though. Bastet have way too much "graceful feline!" hype built into their forms, which are described as being larger than forms of the Garou across the board. Keep in mind that lions and tigers are about the same size as bears, but their associated Bastet tribes never take a hit to Dexterity like the forms of Gurahl.

    Now Crinos has the advantage of using weapons, but they are generally a rarity among Garou and the Khan being Eastern SHifters generally see the use of weapons as the "not serious" way of attacking someone(Like if you stab them well they heal. but CLaws hurt!). So with this in mind in a white room situation with roughly comparable characters the Khan should generally murder the Individual Garou.
    I don't think that the Beast Courts fetish culture described in Hammer and Klaive can really be taken at face value. It clashes with prior descriptions so strongly that it basically comes from out of nowhere, ascribing to the entire system the opinions of two Garou tribes, one of which is very strongly misrepresents (Hakken as originally described were just fine with fetish weapons, just so long as no one makes a katana or wakizashi out of one), the other one was in the Garou Nation primarily until Revised.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    Now Crinos has the advantage of using weapons, but they are generally a rarity among Garou and the Khan being Eastern SHifters generally see the use of weapons as the "not serious" way of attacking someone(Like if you stab them well they heal. but CLaws hurt!). So with this in mind in a white room situation with roughly comparable characters the Khan should generally murder the Individual Garou.
    In a white-room there's also probably a white-den realm that the Khan can jump in and out of with ease to attack from surprise as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    For the Pedants. Many Breeds consider the form between the beast form and Crinos form that matches up with the D&D concept of a Dire version of the creature as their true combat form, this not scientifically accurate but its short hand. When you compare the Bastet in "Form between Crinos and Felis" many are quite favorably statted in comparson to Werewolves in Either Crinos or Hispo.

    Now Crinos has the advantage of using weapons, but they are generally a rarity among Garou and the Khan being Eastern SHifters generally see the use of weapons as the "not serious" way of attacking someone(Like if you stab them well they heal. but CLaws hurt!). So with this in mind in a white room situation with roughly comparable characters the Khan should generally murder the Individual Garou.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    But its Human+ features not human Minus. Things. Also many of the Bastet Breeds consider The Dire form the proper War form.
    There is no dire wolf form. Dire wolves only got about the size of mid-large size dog breeds, not horses. I blame AD&D 2nd edition's Monstrous Compendium for the mix-up; 1e had worgs as huge neo-dire wolves and made distinction that they were Size L to the dire wolf's Size M, but in the aforementioned 2e book, for whatever reason, the dire wolf became L and the worgs shrunk down to Size M.

    (Also, the dire wolf was a strictly New World offshoot of a sister species to the gray wolf, and the dire wolves died out around the time W:tA has the Impergium starting, so none of the tribes outside the Pure Ones should have had a clue that they even existed, much less have any shared hybrid gray wolf/dire wolf blood... which would make them pretty much indistinguishable from a slightly beefed up Lupus form).

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post

    I would say Raven/Bird shifters have some solid folklore.. but can't say the same about Rats.
    The closest I've heard of are rat yokai that can turn into people. And I'm not even sure how common and/or modern those are.

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  • HardestadtTheEvenYounger
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post

    Corax and Ratkin don't gain strength bonuses. SO are you arguing turning into a slightly larger Ratman should make you weaker than normal?
    Corax and Ratkin do gain Strength +1, at least as of W20.

    I am not arguing for anything. It's just if someone wants the war forms to be aligned according to the proportional strength or physical natures of their natural animal form, then yes, the war forms of Ratkin and Corax should be less strong than normal human because ravens and rats are vastly inferior in strength not only to humans, but to the animal forms of the other Changing Breeds.
    I wouldn't go so far. Obviously any werecreature should have an advantage over humans in their war form. Making this thread, I was thinking only in terms of how each Breeds compares to each other when using their natural forms as a basis for comparison.

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  • lbeaumanior
    replied
    Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
    Art and entertainment has often exaggerated the strength and ferocity of the wolf. In nature, if a lone wolf were to fight a tiger or a lion, they wouldn't stand a chance.
    Does the same apply to their supernatural cousins? Without taking Gifts into account, how does a Khan, Simba, Bagheera or Pumonca measure to a similarly ranked Garou, even an Ahroun?
    Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
    It feels like your asking for a lot of effort from others - why not try generating two minmaxed characters yourself and post them here to see how they compare?
    I chip in, I post my combat minimaxed Garou:

    Ugly MacAngry
    Breed: Metis
    Auspice: Ahroun
    Tribe: Children of Gaia
    Nature: Bravo
    Demeanor: Big Bad Wolf
    Rank: 1
    Physical: Strength 4 (6/8/7/5), Dexterity 5 (5/6/7/7), Stamina 1 (3/4/4/3)
    Social: Charisma 4, Manipulation 1 (0/0/0/0), Appearance 1 (0/0/1/1)
    Mental: Perception 2, Intelligence 1, Wits 5
    Talents: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Brawl (Claws) 5, Intimidation 1, Primal-Urge 3
    Skills: Melee 3, Stealth 3, Survival 3
    Knowledges: Occult 2, Rituals 3
    Backgrounds: Ancestors 5
    Rage: 10
    Gnosis: 3
    Willpower: 10
    Glory: 2
    Honor: 1
    Wisdom: 0
    Metis deformity: Tough Hide, Eyes of Darkness
    Gifts: (1) Primal Anger, Razor Claws, Resist Pain
    Rites: None
    Merits: Silver Tolerance
    Flaws: Double Jeopardy, Nightmares, Pack Mentality, Impatient


    All freebies spent on Brawl, Rage, and Willpower; this fellow can:
    • Win Initiative often. Max Dexterity + Max Wits
    • Attack several times per turn Max Rage + Primal Anger
    • Hit enemies consistently. Max Dexterity + Max Brawl + Specialty
    • Do large amounts of damage High Strength + Claws + Razor Claws + Attack roll bonus
    • Get several automatic successes. Max Willpower
    • Ignore most forms of mind control. Max Willpower
    • Recover Willpower after each fight. Bravo
    • Get dice for an Ability it lacks once per game session. Ancestors
    • Regenerate in every form. Metis
    • Soak silver damage in any form. Silver Tolerance
    • Soak low to mid amounts of damage. Min Stamina + Tough Hide
    • Ignore all wound penalties for a scene. Resist Pain
    • See perfectly in darkness. Eyes of Darkness
    • Work better when accompanied by his pack. Pack Mentality
    • Buy future traits as cheap as possible.
    • Acquire easily most of the best combat gifts at each level: (1) Jam Weapon, Rhythm of War (Changing Ways); (2) Spirit of the Fray, Luna's Armor, Burrow, Calm; (3) The Cleaving Hoof (Tribebook), Silver Claws, Dazzle. Metis + Ahroun + Children of Gaia

    Some tweaks:
    1. Switch Pack Mentality for any flaw that requires a Willpower roll (which it will almost certainly pass). This flaw is a boon most of the time if you have a pack, but if it is a one-on-one fight, it will be disadvantageous.
    2. Switch the Razor Claws for Rhythm of War if there is risk of the opponent using stunning from massive damage or knockdown.
    3. Switch Strength and Stamina scores, so it will be able to soak a lot, and still do medium damage with the Attack roll bonus. However, it is more optimal to hit first and often, that to hit mediocrely for longer.


    Add rank as you wish, to see how it stands against opponents.
    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 05-14-2019, 03:05 PM.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
    However, some of the Changing Breeds are simply out of fantasy - wereravens and ratkins are more Fantasy D&D than anything in folklore.
    I would say Raven/Bird shifters have some solid folklore.. but can't say the same about Rats.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
    In a meta sense, I think werewolves are vastly more prominent in the legends and folklore of at least Western culture than other types of shapeshifters.
    Almost every culture has some sort of man-turns-into-animal myth, and that animal is typically the most powerful predator in the region - what would be the most dangerous animal to men, something which might kill humans or eat valuable livestock. So in northern Eurasia, that is the wolf. In India, it is the tiger. In sub-Saharan Africa, it is the lion. Near the Sahara it is the hyena. In Latin America, is it is the jaguar. In these cases, it is some kind of malevolent sorcerer or witch that turns into the animal to bedevil people.

    There's also a few cases where outright spirits or faerie type creatures assume forms of both animals and man, but these are often less predatory, but more mischievous.

    However, some of the Changing Breeds are simply out of fantasy - wereravens and ratkins are more Fantasy D&D than anything in folklore.

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  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    I mean, the game isn't called Assorted Werecats: the Apocalypse, so you can see why there might be a certain amount of favoritism for the garou built in from the start. In a meta sense, I think werewolves are vastly more prominent in the legends and folklore of at least Western culture than other types of shapeshifters.

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