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Metis' role in the 5th edition?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Bleh, lost a big post. Anyway... probably not worth it:

    Illithid

    OK, you're thinking as a human and breeding with a non-human. Spend some time thinking as a person with a uterus being asked (or worse) to go through a Metis pregnancy because people with penises don't want their forced breeding program to make them feel icky when they have sex with a wolf.
    Having not been pregnant myself, I wasn't thinking of that aspect, or the birth ... with claws ...
    Really it's all a bit off; though - as I did state at the start, maybe being Garou would be different.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      Asked and answered.

      Fera can be made without the ability to make Metis at all, or to make Metis that have no issues with infertility and/or deformities. It's clearly within Gaia's power to see this happen, with no clear logic on which shifters are and aren't stuck with it.

      Personally healing the Triat is something she's never shown to be capable of doing. Making shifters that don't have Metis Breeds is.
      Unless the Fera were created by Luna/Helios/Weaver respectively.
      Depending on the Order of their Creation, it might have been that some learning involved. Possibly starting with Metis that are deformed, then correcting that, or the other way round.

      Personally I believe that authors of the Fera books just didn't want to deal with Metis and hand-waived the topic or used it to separate their breed from the garou further.

      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      And execution matters to making better stories. Getting away from the rather obnoxious "deformities are because you exist to shame your sinful parents," metanarrative makes will make for better stories, and isn't incompatible with "a law and free will."
      Well, one could have executed certain matters around the metis theme better.

      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      And I completely agree with Ana Mizuki on how people vastly over stress playing Lupus. Playing a Lupus is no harder than playing a Homid with decent or high Primal Urge.
      Maybe so. For seasoned characters. But starting characters probably had a year or so since the first change. Meaning for a lupus that they had rational though for about that time. A lot of common knowledge and such is simply unlikely for them to have.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by heinrich View Post
        Maybe so. For seasoned characters. But starting characters probably had a year or so since the first change. Meaning for a lupus that they had rational though for about that time. A lot of common knowledge and such is simply unlikely for them to have.
        And Lupus can't have expended more than a year or so with the tribe learning "a lot of common knowledge" before knowing the pack and actually starting the game?.

        Because in other games the starting character age within the supernatural society isn't that relevant. Neonates can have 20-50 years of being a vampire w/o having different sheets. Experience and capacity aren't a function of age, but of experience. Starting character capacity has to be balanced, all the rest it's just flavor that could justify taking some traits over others, but shouldn't make any character unplayable.

        I think it's far more convinient to say that Lupus had a few years more after the first change in the tribe to adjust and learn stuff (much like young Metis do). The time other Garou races spend after the first change gaining Renown and keeping some ties with human society (like having a job), you expended learning the language and the basics of how to move in society (perhaps even a dot or two in some "modern human" skill you really wanted to learn)...hence you had more than a year after the first change but the same traits and capabilities overal as a starting character...

        Is there some in game reason for why this can't or shouldn't be done?
        Last edited by Aleph; 05-16-2019, 09:33 AM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Aleph View Post
          Is there a reason Lupus can't have expended time with the tribe learning "a lot of common knowledge" before knowing the pack and starting the game?.
          They could. But I never read anywhere that they do that (as a general rule). Surely their knowledge restriction wouldn't be that restrictive, if they as a general rule had several years of adjustment and the opportunity to learn between first change and character start.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by heinrich View Post
            They could. But I never read anywhere that they do that (as a general rule). Surely their knowledge restriction wouldn't be that restrictive, if they as a general rule had several years of adjustment and the opportunity to learn between first change and character start.
            Their knowledge restriction it's quite specific. It involves "modern society" skills that aren't likely to be valued or taught within Garou society. But note that you explicitly CAN expend freebies to learn these skills up to 2 dots in spite of them being utterly alien to wolves (at least in Revised you could, did that change in W20?), and thus a Lupus with Drive would still be a better driver and know more about trafic laws than, say, me (as I don't know anything about that subject). A Lupus with Computer knows more about their PC than the average old person

            More to the point: a Homid character may not have a single dot on those restricted skills either (not rare in certain rural places), so the question would be: Do you feel necessary to make their knowledge more restricted than it already is?. Because if you don't, I don't see how playing them would be worse that playing a Homid w/o the skills in question...
            Last edited by Aleph; 05-16-2019, 09:56 AM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Aleph View Post

              And Lupus can't have expended more than a year or so with the tribe learning "a lot of common knowledge" before knowing the pack and actually starting the game?.

              Because in other games the starting character age within the supernatural society isn't that relevant. Neonates can have 20-50 years of being a vampire w/o having different sheets. Experience and capacity aren't a function of age, but of experience. Starting character capacity has to be balanced, all the rest it's just flavor that could justify taking some traits over others, but shouldn't make any character unplayable.

              I think it's far more convinient to say that Lupus had a few years more after the first change in the tribe to adjust and learn stuff (much like young Metis do). The time other Garou races spend after the first change gaining Renown and keeping some ties with human society (like having a job), you expended learning the language and the basics of how to move in society (perhaps even a dot or two in some "modern human" skill you really wanted to learn)...hence you had more than a year after the first change but the same traits and capabilities overal as a starting character...

              Is there some in game reason for why this can't or shouldn't be done?
              Yeah, I have always seen cub-hood for lupus as including things like how to NOT break the veil in cities (even the W20 section on Red Talons notes they do this.) The mentality that lupus get rited the -month- they change has always bothered me. Because garou society is far more complex than the wolf one, so how the heck would a lupus even get rited/understand auspice role/tribe, without learning to think more 'human'? Those things aren't instinctual, after all.

              As well as the freebie thing, I've always seen it as the things the lupus learned post-change. They can also have rituals and medicine with their main dots, both which require understanding how to apply their human minds.

              This is basically what I mean by people making playing lupus harder than it should be. They assume lupus don't get ANY training post-change before being rited, so the player must act like they don't get things that a garou would NEED to function as a cliath.


              My gallery.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                Unless the Fera were created by Luna/Helios/Weaver respectively.
                Eh. Not really sure that's a distinction with a difference. Again, when you actually map out where the Fera would fall in this, you don't get a clear picture.

                Depending on the Order of their Creation, it might have been that some learning involved. Possibly starting with Metis that are deformed, then correcting that, or the other way round.
                Well, the "oldest" all seem to be "No Metis." Though after that it's still a massive jumble. I mean, the explicit youngest (the Kitsune) have Metis, but their Metis are seen as awesome and the only problem is how difficult it is to produce one.

                Personally I believe that authors of the Fera books just didn't want to deal with Metis and hand-waived the topic or used it to separate their breed from the garou further.
                Probably? But the even here it's all over the place. And it's not like the order of the Fera getting their books sheds any light on it.

                Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                But note that you explicitly CAN expend freebies to learn these skills up to 2 dots in spite of them being utterly alien to wolves...
                In W20 at least, there's no cap on how many freebies you can spend on those. If I want a Lupus PC that starts with Drive 5? It's totally allowable in the rules... it just costs me 10 freebies. Obviously there should be a good ass story behind it too, but nothing stops this.

                Though that's most important for Law and Philodox Lupus because WtA uses Law to cover Garou laws as well as human laws, which means it's the only Auspice that gets hosed by the Lupus restrictions.
                Last edited by Heavy Arms; 05-16-2019, 02:12 PM.

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