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Metis' role in the 5th edition?

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  • Ana Mizuki
    started a topic Metis' role in the 5th edition?

    Metis' role in the 5th edition?

    So let us say that you get to decide some aspect of the (to be) 5th edition, mainly the breeds. You still want homid and lupus to be there, but what about metis?

    Here I move to the meat of this thread. If WtA faces the kind of heavy restructuring that Vampire went under, should the metis breed still remain in the game?

    For one, what message does it send to the players that the garouxgarou child is a deformed and infertile creature, named rather poorly as metis? This isn't 90s anymore, we are more aware of players who are disabled. Or what about the actual Canadian metis people?

    Then there is the fact that metis have zero actual werewolf myth role. They are very much a combination of The Grotesque and Madwoman in the Attic tropes. Not as much on anything werewolf myths have.

    Then again, metis serve as a good example of garou pride and arrogance, not to mention moral blindness. They are very much the example how dark garou society can be at times.

    What do you guys think?


  • Erinys
    replied
    Another name Garou could call the children of charach: call them charachling. That would not be a nice name.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    While I did not phrase it that specifically, because the Metis thing is not the only reason, it was clearly in a paragraph discussing reactions by actual people impacted that included their feelings about the Metis.

    Nitpicking to this extent does you no good.

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Do you think Heavy Arms was lying when he said First Nations people abandoned his MtA game when they found out he was a Werewolf fan?
    Did you see him specify what exactly turned them off?

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    It's also worth noting that:

    - The early WW books tended to not include pronunciation guides, making it less clear what the intention was in certain regards.

    - The name Wendigo tends to cause less friction IME, because many of the Tribal Totems are monsters, ill-omens, or similarly bad things from the human cultural perspectives associated with those Tribes. Rats and cockroaches are vermin associated with disease. Owls and dark storm clouds are associated with negative omens. Most of the Tribal Totems are mythological creatures that range from outright antagonistic reactions to humans, to wanted to be left alone by them (Unicorn might have a very nice image today, but not a nice creature in mythology). Stag and Falcon are pretty much the only "good" Totems from a human mythological perspective.

    - Again, IME, what things are linked to matters. What pissed people off about the Wendigo far more than the name was that they're presented as the worst mix of the Noble Savage tropes, shoehorned into being the "warrior" Tribe for the Pure Lands (though that's another one that did not sit well) when the Uktena were given a much deeper cultural outlook, and being obsessed with being angry at Europeans.

    - Just for the sake of clarity, I was vague about the tribal identifies of the players I lost because it wasn't as simple as them all being full members of First Nations peoples. All of them did, however, have least a relative as close as a grandparent who was. I don't think it's valuable to get into all of the little distinctions here, just recognizing that I was vague because it's complicated.

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  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    I do wonder if Native Americans and Métis peoples would actually draw the conclusion...
    Do you think Heavy Arms was lying when he said First Nations people abandoned his MtA game when they found out he was a Werewolf fan?

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    I don't want this to be the hill I die on, but I will point out that Métis is pronounced /meɪˈtiː(s) (ei is like "Ay") whilst I've never heard a player use anything other than me'tis "(e being like the e in 'men') ; They're pronounced very differently, and I do wonder if Native Americans and Métis peoples would actually draw the conclusion that werewolves that were the result of what is essentially inbreeding having a similar spelling to Métis is a targeted attack towards a group of people that were the product of racial mixing, the very opposite thing to inbreeding. I do wonder if this is a bit patronizing. There are many things natives might object to concerning WTA (The Wendigo, the Wendigo, The Wendigo* and I suppose the Uktena might seem a little off if you're not taking into account how off the european tribes are) but I think the issue of the word metis would be a lesser one were it not for other egregious examples..
    (of course, if it has to go it has to go; But I'd prefer hearing that from Metis people than some white folk enraged on their behalf)

    (I do think the wendigo could be recontextualized appropriately without losing their tribal identity)

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    I didn't.
    If you read correctly I commented on behaviour by people another poster experienced years ago.

    I very much respect Heavy Arms and his take on many topics in these forums.
    Don't argue with mods.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Don't talk to other posters this way.
    I didn't.
    If you read correctly I commented on behaviour by people another poster experienced years ago.

    I very much respect Heavy Arms and his take on many topics in these forums.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    That is imo overly sensitive to borderline idiotic behaviour.
    Don't talk to other posters this way.

    Leave a comment:


  • Erinys
    replied
    Instead of arguing ad nauseum, let's brainstorm new words.
    • Mule, runt, wastrel, and maybe bastard are words Garou would use. Wiktionary tells me that abhaicín is Irish for 'runt', and lists nákʼeeshchąąʼí as the Navajo translation of 'runt'. It also gives lots of translations for bastard.
    • Crinos is a word I could see the mules calling themselves to insist they deserve equality with homid and lupus, and to highlight their relation to all Garou, who all have a Crinos form.
    • For Grondr, crinos works.
    • Ratkin can't use runt, since that has a specific meaning for them already, and even mule might be a word only homids think to use. I like wastrel as a Ratkin term, abecause theirs are sickly and less likey to survive the Birthing Plague. Nvm, Wiktionary says 'wastrel' doesn't mean sickly.
    • Kumo admire their in-between children, because they alone get to enjoy the fun of eating their mothers alive from the inside out. So... shinju ('pure') works for them. But does anyone know how to say "devourer" in Chinese or Japanese or Korean?

    What about the children of other Changing-Breeds? Does anyone know any African, South Asian, or Native American words that might be used by Bastet and Ajaba? Bastet admire their sterile children but for a less squick reason: because of the amazingly awesome Gifts they have (seriously, they are the most kickass in the Bastet Gifts list). I doubt Ajaba would call their mules 'runt' because for them, that would imply 'sickly animal that needs to be culled'.
    Last edited by Erinys; 08-11-2020, 12:04 PM.

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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    This whole discussion is tiring because what I and Heavy Arms are saying is to make sure the PLAYERS will not feel attacked/offended about the material. Nothing about the in-universe treatment of metis. Just retiring one word and replacing it with maybe something from Latin like homid/lupus are?

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Look, you've all driven in decent points about the word metis, but is there a good way to reconcile an inoffensive solution with a toxic Garou culture?
    Yes. Plenty have been provided during the 8 pages of this. The thing is... most of us don't care about any sort of in-universe explanation for the change. Retconing it is fine. We don't need any sort of silly metaplot event that you seem to constantly harp on as a distraction from the issue.

    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    That is imo overly sensitive to borderline idiotic behaviour.
    As you say, it's not a term that's being used that's insulting to you. It takes the most minimal application of empathy to understand why marginalized groups don't want to deal with casual racist language in their games and don't want to deal with gaming groups that accept such language in their gaming books.

    ...and that doesn't make sense as name for a breed.
    That depends highly on what you think the point of having the Breed is (or at least was originally).

    That said, if the 5th edition would simply use "Mule" as a term within the rules sections and descriptive texts and add an entry to the "garou words" section mentioning that the term "Metis" has fallen into disuse, especially with the rise of homids with political-correctness in mind.
    It would be bullshit, as has been explained, repeatedly. It's not an in-universe problem that needs an in-universe solution. It's a problem with the writing of the game, and that's were it needs to be solved and acknowledged.

    Would it satisfy everyone? Of course not. But there's a lot you can do for goodwill by actually fixing and acknowledge why they needed fixed than worrying about retcons.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    That's what the books ask every Metis person that picks them up. That's why lots of us have spent decades advocating it get changed in some fashion. You're calling it an overblown non-issue because it doesn't make you put down the book and dismiss WtA in disgust. I actually lost players with Native backgrounds from an online Mage game just by mentioning I was a WtA fan in the late 90s.
    That is imo overly sensitive to borderline idiotic behaviour.

    But, as I employ my google fu it seems that the term is only used for the Métis people today, and not an actively used term in the frensh language. Also, to relate it to the greek Mêtis seems wrong within the meaning of the word within the in-game universe - for while the Titaness Mêtis was kind of a double-edged sword situation for Zeus, the word also corresponds to 'wisdom' and that doesn't make sense as name for a breed.

    That said, if the 5th edition would simply use "Mule" as a term within the rules sections and descriptive texts and add an entry to the "garou words" section mentioning that the term "Metis" has fallen into disuse, especially with the rise of homids with political-correctness in mind.
    If W5 is to bridge a decade like V5 did, such a change would be believable, while not retconning the use of the word in the past.
    It still might not satisfy all Metis People, but unless someone emplys a TARDIS, it seems to me like a sensible approach. Then again, I'm not offended by the term.

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Look, you've all driven in decent points about the word metis, but is there a good way to reconcile an inoffensive solution with a toxic Garou culture?

    I had this funny (not funny) exhange in my head

    "Ok, more than half the nation have agreed; we're not allowed to call you freaks metis anymore, it's insulting to a marginalized people some of us have ties to, and therefore a slur of the wyrm; What do you want to be called instead? Bastards, freaks, inbred, monstrosities, mistakes?"

    Leave a comment:

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