Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Metis' role in the 5th edition?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ana Mizuki
    started a topic Metis' role in the 5th edition?

    Metis' role in the 5th edition?

    So let us say that you get to decide some aspect of the (to be) 5th edition, mainly the breeds. You still want homid and lupus to be there, but what about metis?

    Here I move to the meat of this thread. If WtA faces the kind of heavy restructuring that Vampire went under, should the metis breed still remain in the game?

    For one, what message does it send to the players that the garouxgarou child is a deformed and infertile creature, named rather poorly as metis? This isn't 90s anymore, we are more aware of players who are disabled. Or what about the actual Canadian metis people?

    Then there is the fact that metis have zero actual werewolf myth role. They are very much a combination of The Grotesque and Madwoman in the Attic tropes. Not as much on anything werewolf myths have.

    Then again, metis serve as a good example of garou pride and arrogance, not to mention moral blindness. They are very much the example how dark garou society can be at times.

    What do you guys think?


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    Unless the Fera were created by Luna/Helios/Weaver respectively.
    Eh. Not really sure that's a distinction with a difference. Again, when you actually map out where the Fera would fall in this, you don't get a clear picture.

    Depending on the Order of their Creation, it might have been that some learning involved. Possibly starting with Metis that are deformed, then correcting that, or the other way round.
    Well, the "oldest" all seem to be "No Metis." Though after that it's still a massive jumble. I mean, the explicit youngest (the Kitsune) have Metis, but their Metis are seen as awesome and the only problem is how difficult it is to produce one.

    Personally I believe that authors of the Fera books just didn't want to deal with Metis and hand-waived the topic or used it to separate their breed from the garou further.
    Probably? But the even here it's all over the place. And it's not like the order of the Fera getting their books sheds any light on it.

    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
    But note that you explicitly CAN expend freebies to learn these skills up to 2 dots in spite of them being utterly alien to wolves...
    In W20 at least, there's no cap on how many freebies you can spend on those. If I want a Lupus PC that starts with Drive 5? It's totally allowable in the rules... it just costs me 10 freebies. Obviously there should be a good ass story behind it too, but nothing stops this.

    Though that's most important for Law and Philodox Lupus because WtA uses Law to cover Garou laws as well as human laws, which means it's the only Auspice that gets hosed by the Lupus restrictions.
    Last edited by Heavy Arms; 05-16-2019, 02:12 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Originally posted by Aleph View Post

    And Lupus can't have expended more than a year or so with the tribe learning "a lot of common knowledge" before knowing the pack and actually starting the game?.

    Because in other games the starting character age within the supernatural society isn't that relevant. Neonates can have 20-50 years of being a vampire w/o having different sheets. Experience and capacity aren't a function of age, but of experience. Starting character capacity has to be balanced, all the rest it's just flavor that could justify taking some traits over others, but shouldn't make any character unplayable.

    I think it's far more convinient to say that Lupus had a few years more after the first change in the tribe to adjust and learn stuff (much like young Metis do). The time other Garou races spend after the first change gaining Renown and keeping some ties with human society (like having a job), you expended learning the language and the basics of how to move in society (perhaps even a dot or two in some "modern human" skill you really wanted to learn)...hence you had more than a year after the first change but the same traits and capabilities overal as a starting character...

    Is there some in game reason for why this can't or shouldn't be done?
    Yeah, I have always seen cub-hood for lupus as including things like how to NOT break the veil in cities (even the W20 section on Red Talons notes they do this.) The mentality that lupus get rited the -month- they change has always bothered me. Because garou society is far more complex than the wolf one, so how the heck would a lupus even get rited/understand auspice role/tribe, without learning to think more 'human'? Those things aren't instinctual, after all.

    As well as the freebie thing, I've always seen it as the things the lupus learned post-change. They can also have rituals and medicine with their main dots, both which require understanding how to apply their human minds.

    This is basically what I mean by people making playing lupus harder than it should be. They assume lupus don't get ANY training post-change before being rited, so the player must act like they don't get things that a garou would NEED to function as a cliath.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aleph
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    They could. But I never read anywhere that they do that (as a general rule). Surely their knowledge restriction wouldn't be that restrictive, if they as a general rule had several years of adjustment and the opportunity to learn between first change and character start.
    Their knowledge restriction it's quite specific. It involves "modern society" skills that aren't likely to be valued or taught within Garou society. But note that you explicitly CAN expend freebies to learn these skills up to 2 dots in spite of them being utterly alien to wolves (at least in Revised you could, did that change in W20?), and thus a Lupus with Drive would still be a better driver and know more about trafic laws than, say, me (as I don't know anything about that subject). A Lupus with Computer knows more about their PC than the average old person

    More to the point: a Homid character may not have a single dot on those restricted skills either (not rare in certain rural places), so the question would be: Do you feel necessary to make their knowledge more restricted than it already is?. Because if you don't, I don't see how playing them would be worse that playing a Homid w/o the skills in question...
    Last edited by Aleph; 05-16-2019, 09:56 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
    Is there a reason Lupus can't have expended time with the tribe learning "a lot of common knowledge" before knowing the pack and starting the game?.
    They could. But I never read anywhere that they do that (as a general rule). Surely their knowledge restriction wouldn't be that restrictive, if they as a general rule had several years of adjustment and the opportunity to learn between first change and character start.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aleph
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    Maybe so. For seasoned characters. But starting characters probably had a year or so since the first change. Meaning for a lupus that they had rational though for about that time. A lot of common knowledge and such is simply unlikely for them to have.
    And Lupus can't have expended more than a year or so with the tribe learning "a lot of common knowledge" before knowing the pack and actually starting the game?.

    Because in other games the starting character age within the supernatural society isn't that relevant. Neonates can have 20-50 years of being a vampire w/o having different sheets. Experience and capacity aren't a function of age, but of experience. Starting character capacity has to be balanced, all the rest it's just flavor that could justify taking some traits over others, but shouldn't make any character unplayable.

    I think it's far more convinient to say that Lupus had a few years more after the first change in the tribe to adjust and learn stuff (much like young Metis do). The time other Garou races spend after the first change gaining Renown and keeping some ties with human society (like having a job), you expended learning the language and the basics of how to move in society (perhaps even a dot or two in some "modern human" skill you really wanted to learn)...hence you had more than a year after the first change but the same traits and capabilities overal as a starting character...

    Is there some in game reason for why this can't or shouldn't be done?
    Last edited by Aleph; 05-16-2019, 09:33 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Asked and answered.

    Fera can be made without the ability to make Metis at all, or to make Metis that have no issues with infertility and/or deformities. It's clearly within Gaia's power to see this happen, with no clear logic on which shifters are and aren't stuck with it.

    Personally healing the Triat is something she's never shown to be capable of doing. Making shifters that don't have Metis Breeds is.
    Unless the Fera were created by Luna/Helios/Weaver respectively.
    Depending on the Order of their Creation, it might have been that some learning involved. Possibly starting with Metis that are deformed, then correcting that, or the other way round.

    Personally I believe that authors of the Fera books just didn't want to deal with Metis and hand-waived the topic or used it to separate their breed from the garou further.

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    And execution matters to making better stories. Getting away from the rather obnoxious "deformities are because you exist to shame your sinful parents," metanarrative makes will make for better stories, and isn't incompatible with "a law and free will."
    Well, one could have executed certain matters around the metis theme better.

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    And I completely agree with Ana Mizuki on how people vastly over stress playing Lupus. Playing a Lupus is no harder than playing a Homid with decent or high Primal Urge.
    Maybe so. For seasoned characters. But starting characters probably had a year or so since the first change. Meaning for a lupus that they had rational though for about that time. A lot of common knowledge and such is simply unlikely for them to have.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Bleh, lost a big post. Anyway... probably not worth it:

    Illithid

    OK, you're thinking as a human and breeding with a non-human. Spend some time thinking as a person with a uterus being asked (or worse) to go through a Metis pregnancy because people with penises don't want their forced breeding program to make them feel icky when they have sex with a wolf.
    Having not been pregnant myself, I wasn't thinking of that aspect, or the birth ... with claws ...
    Really it's all a bit off; though - as I did state at the start, maybe being Garou would be different.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    The stargazers were never removed from the main book. Revised has them off in theirown little section but they weren't removed from the book.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    And if she didn't want to die, why doens't she just cure the wyrm?
    Asked and answered.

    Fera can be made without the ability to make Metis at all, or to make Metis that have no issues with infertility and/or deformities. It's clearly within Gaia's power to see this happen, with no clear logic on which shifters are and aren't stuck with it.

    Personally healing the Triat is something she's never shown to be capable of doing. Making shifters that don't have Metis Breeds is.

    If one assumes the Conservation of Energy law applies to magic and well a god creation Creation, then it seems a rule forbidding the mating is more cost efficient than an exception to the rules of procreation of gender based species...
    I... really don't understand what this sentence is trying to say. What are the cost efficiencies involved? What are the "rules of procreation of gender based species to have exceptions too?

    In any case a law and free will make for better stories.
    And execution matters to making better stories. Getting away from the rather obnoxious "deformities are because you exist to shame your sinful parents," metanarrative makes will make for better stories, and isn't incompatible with "a law and free will."

    Personally I found lupus breed not that helpful to play,...
    Why does that matter here?

    So, if Stargazers can be removed and put into a supplement book, why can't lupus and metis?
    They are still there, but kind of like an advanced theme that one only adds into a chronicle if the players and ST want to deal with that theme.
    The Stargazers being moved to a supplement is largely regarded as a mistake since it lasted for all of one edition.

    And if you aren't cutting Lupus and Metis from the setting, not putting them in the core book becomes untenable. Forcing people to buy extra books to play 2/3s of the Breeds (even if it's just the ST that's playing them) is not a smart move. And I completely agree with Ana Mizuki on how people vastly over stress playing Lupus. Playing a Lupus is no harder than playing a Homid with decent or high Primal Urge.

    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
    As for metis, I think they serve as an important function in the game. Metis PCs are a very raw reminder that for all the good the Nation does, they still do a lot of systematic wrong. I've found playing metis can be fun to explore these themes, without having other players be bastards to the metis character.
    The problem is the function is redundant. There's lots of options for exploring/keeping focus on the systemic wrongs the Garou Nation does even if you completely cut the Metis. The current state of the Metis is also a good example of how WtA has a tendency to be too heavy handed, then sabotaging it's own themes. By making the hardships of the Metis so extreme, the game ends up giving the anti-Metis bias of the Garou something of a reasonable justification instead of making them look horrible for it. Rather than relying on the weight of cultural inertia and bigotry (which does just fine in perpetuating systemic wrongs), they ended up giving the persecution of Metis reasons that actually require arguing against.

    And as heinrich rightfully points out, playing the NPCs to make the Metis persecution feel real in play can be extremely trying for the ST that has to make it count; esp if the other players aren't going to.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post

    Personally I found lupus breed not that helpful to play, for arguments about how a lupus should react or shouldn't when, really, nobody has any experience with the matter. But, if one would remove lupus, metis could be gone too. Much like forsaken. In our LARP game we simply disallowed lupus PCs and rarely a player wants to play a metis.

    And while I think it can be interesting, challanging and rewarding in some ways to play a metis an deal with the additional hardships that come with that, I also feel that neither the other players nor I with my NPCs want to be douchy to a metis all the time. It is exhausting. But if one doesn't live up to the social parts of the metis role it is just a character with a few alternate rules in regards to healing and gift availability. That isn't cool either.
    I've always felt people make playing lupus into a much MUCH harder thing than it actually is. Everyone is talking about realism, when basically all you need is to think the lupus as shapeshifting smart wolves. Aside from the shapeshifting part, I have seen people roleplay plain intelligent wolves just fine over the years.

    Domain of the Wolf is an art roleplaying game where you play as a wolf trying to live among packs of humanized wolves. While it looks cartoony, it can often get REAL dark with its content, to WoD levels. If these adult people can play mere wolves just fine, what is stopping us from playing lupus who actually ARE half-human? Certainly not more realism, as we are still playing magical werewolves fighting for Earth mother.

    As for metis, I think they serve as an important function in the game. Metis PCs are a very raw reminder that for all the good the Nation does, they still do a lot of systematic wrong. I've found playing metis can be fun to explore these themes, without having other players be bastards to the metis character.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    2) It doesn't make sense for the Metis to even be possible. If Gaia truly wants there to be no Garou-Garou mating... why not make it impossible for that to happen?
    And if she didn't want to die, why doens't she just cure the wyrm?

    If one assumes the Conservation of Energy law applies to magic and well a god creation Creation, then it seems a rule forbidding the mating is more cost efficient than an exception to the rules of procreation of gender based species...

    In any case a law and free will make for better stories.

    Personally I found lupus breed not that helpful to play, for arguments about how a lupus should react or shouldn't when, really, nobody has any experience with the matter. But, if one would remove lupus, metis could be gone too. Much like forsaken. In our LARP game we simply disallowed lupus PCs and rarely a player wants to play a metis.

    And while I think it can be interesting, challanging and rewarding in some ways to play a metis an deal with the additional hardships that come with that, I also feel that neither the other players nor I with my NPCs want to be douchy to a metis all the time. It is exhausting. But if one doesn't live up to the social parts of the metis role it is just a character with a few alternate rules in regards to healing and gift availability. That isn't cool either.

    So, if Stargazers can be removed and put into a supplement book, why can't lupus and metis?
    They are still there, but kind of like an advanced theme that one only adds into a chronicle if the players and ST want to deal with that theme.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    The reason why I don't agree with the whole "inbred mutation" angle with Metis is because there is absolutely no rational ground for why it should exist. First of all, Werewolves are divided up into many different tribes, who have their own cultural views about things. Even if I was generous and said that Metis deformities happen when two members of the same tribe breed together, this could easily be fixed by having the Garou breed across different tribes. This would also help to promote good relationships between the tribes, so that they can focus on their primary mission.
    Which is why I made this thread, because the sole reason Metis are deformed and sterile by setting themes, is due to them being children of incest and to avoid garou breeding with one another. Everything in their design says 'inbred freak child hidden in the Caern from people.' There is no werewolf myth themed reason to fall back on, and that is important when it comes to reconstructuring the setting.

    Forsaken dropped the unihar, because werewolves not breeding with one another due to a disabled child wasn't as impactful as in WtA. Not to mention, it also created a very kinfolk-like situation for the Wolf-Blooded that possibly was not intended.

    With future WtA, the writers have to look at the setting and really think on what themes can stay. The existence of metis might go, due to the very unfortunate implications the breed was build upon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
    Plus let us remember that metis deformities are random, you literally cannot predict if the kid gets horns or brittle bones. Or that a metis pregnancy is full 9 months to wolves' 2, the mother might not survive or becomes infertile. Also, metis at MOST come in twins, lupus produce more pups per litter.

    The mass-production of metis is slow and you are likely to lose 1 garou per pup. The wait time for that pup to grow enough to be useful is also wayyyyy longer than with lupus pups.

    Hence why I would toss out the idea of them having deformities in the first place. Simply by virtue of being in Crinos form by default, they already have enough problems to deal with.

    But I suppose the wolf born would also satisfy the criteria of being natural born killers. They are carnivorous animals, after all.

    Edit: The reason why I don't agree with the whole "inbred mutation" angle with Metis is because there is absolutely no rational ground for why it should exist. First of all, Werewolves are divided up into many different tribes, who have their own cultural views about things. Even if I was generous and said that Metis deformities happen when two members of the same tribe breed together, this could easily be fixed by having the Garou breed across different tribes. This would also help to promote good relationships between the tribes, so that they can focus on their primary mission.

    Second of all, science tells us that every human on the planet is distantly related to each other in some fashion or another. Going by Werewolf logic, humans shouldn't be allowed to mate with other humans, because that's incest!
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-13-2019, 05:51 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Bleh, lost a big post. Anyway... probably not worth it:

    Illithid

    OK, you're thinking as a human and breeding with a non-human. Spend some time thinking as a person with a uterus being asked (or worse) to go through a Metis pregnancy because people with penises don't want their forced breeding program to make them feel icky when they have sex with a wolf.

    Lachdanan

    I find your protestations of English not being a native language spurious at best. It seems to be a regular pattern in this debate of your using whatever excuses you can to end a line of discussion when it seems to be not going in a way you like.

    Despite severely misquoting me - including cutting out a huge amount of a passage and altering the last sentence in a fashion that radically changes the meaning by cutting out just the right words - in a fashion that happens to let you argue what you want to argue against, instead of what I actually said, you want me to believe it's just a language barrier. You say you are conscious of miscommunications but have made multiple assertions based on interpretations that suit you rather than asking for clarifications. You want to use yourself as an example, but you call foul about me going personal when I comment on what you bring up about yourself.

    Nope. Not buying it. At all. Peddle your self-serving lapses in English to someone else.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X