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How do Kinfolk Ritualists Acquire Goodwill from the spirits?

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  • How do Kinfolk Ritualists Acquire Goodwill from the spirits?

    Is their a way to keep Resources from being too powerful in the process because I can see burning lots and lots of incense and playing a lot of beautiful music as something that a lot of spirits would be pleased by.

    At Resources 5 you can probably build a small fulltime shrine to spirits.

    Other options are going on quests for spirits.

    probably how a bone gnawer kin is able to enact Rite of the Cardboard Palace.

    Another idea is most kinfolk Ritualists probably start working for the sept with spirits viewing them simply as a proxy for those who are covered by the pact.



  • #2
    Incense is not a universal go to in the World of Darkness, its not Exalted. But it is something that is probably enjoyed by a lot of spirits especially if its local custom, like in the east, but in the Carribean maybe you use Rum and Cigars.

    But for spirits you can kind of tune in good chiminage based on a few dimensions. One the accuracy of the offering (so playing a flute dirge for a specific spirit of wind and loss may tickle their I like this bone, but they probably want super care about a bowl of Carrots and probably something like a video recording of a screaming baby).

    Then how much the offering takes out of you, like how much effort or sacrifice involved. A poor man with no job who spends his last twenty to simple cake will have a lot more sacrifice energy then a millionaire paying his personal pastry chef to make a 5 thousand dollar cake, especially if the poor man gave the spirit the cake rather then used it for his daughters birthday. Same with a hag in the woods spending a decade to make a sacred knot to burn, it could have more potence then a someone burning a silk tapestry without emotional resonance just because its a tapestry worth more than a house.

    But that said proper shepherding of a lot of resources can get you more than one single modestly wealthy person. Like a single person could put a lot of effort dedicating prayers and songs to a spirit but if you have a lot of money you can literally upraise a Temple and maybe even have it populated by dedicated priests.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #3
      I take it that you mean Chiminage when you say acquiring goodwill. In that case, Resources may be useful to some degree in obtaining certain material correspondences or making it easier to do certain things, but I don't think Resources by itself is any kind of dominant factor in allowing the ritualist to gain favor.

      All acts of Chiminage are there in order to create a relationship between an individual spirit and the petitioner (whether Garou, kinfolk, or anyone else). It is not about "buying" or "purchasing" favors or goodwill. Instead, it is about the petitioner showing the spirit that by deeds, he is acting or fulfilling the proper role to the spirit (usually as some kind of mentor, teacher, guide, parental figure, or protector) that makes the spirit favorable to the person.

      A humble, poor man building a shrine out of locally sourced materials he found and select himself, crafted by his own hands and decorated with appropriate materials is demonstrating better chiminage than some rich person who hires an architect and an army of contractors to build a shrine that aesthetically and structurally looks far superior to the first person's shrine. That's because the attitude the first person demonstrated towards the spirit was far superior to that of the second.

      Certainly a person who demonstrates some sort of mastery in the skill the chiminage's form takes is probably superior to someone who hasn't bothered to master the skill (as mastery of skill demonstrates both an aptitude and devotion in the petitioner that would make the spirit proud of their "child"), it may not be the most important or even decisive factor in a spirit's evaluation of the chiminage presented to them.

      The spirits are eternal, timeless beings. They existed before mankind existed and will exist after mankind passes; certainly longer than any individual person. Therefore, they have a very different perspective on things than a human would. What a single man compared to a mountain, which seems eternal to that man, but which the spirits remember was not there before in geologic time, and know there will come a time when it ceases to exist. What then the petty shrines constructed by some rich fool? To spirits, the journey is the destination. And while there are more appropriate kinds of material correspondences, devotional acts and sacrifices than others, what they are looking for is the right mentality. Again, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

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      • #4
        As others have said Chiminage varies from spirit to spirit; some may very well be happy to be bribed with riches.....others want you to give things up, or do tasks for them, or live within certain restrictions....money doesn't solve everything.

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        • #5
          naturally. of course.

          Rite of the Cardboard Palace

          Spirits that empower it are probaly not going to be impressed with wealth someone qwho needs it probaly doesn't have wealth anyway.

          Rite of cleansing...

          Will probaly be the easyiest Rite to get the spirits to empower as they WANT the place cleansed.

          Rite of the Questing stone... If your using it for a ny kind of Monetary Reward had better split it with the spirit.


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          • #6
            Well thing is if a rich man convinces dedicated people to build an extravagant temple it has actual talented dedicated people working towards the goal. It's no different than say an emperor charges a vassal to bless his river and that vassal goes and does a dedicated quest and series of ordeals to satisfy the spirit of the river. The spirit won't necessarily go, wow that was an amazing series of deeds to earn my favor, but the emperor didn't do it personally and even though you want the river blessed the emperor doesn't want it enough.

            And some spirits have much shorter lifespans then eternity, think the actual spirits of a Tree, or a house, or even Cats who are say new to an area because a village became a town and eventually had stray cats.


            But Rituals have no guarantee it will work if a Kinfolk performs it. It works for Fera because the Pact is hardwired into the Tellurian. But if a mortal does a rite they aren't petitioning just one spirit, like they don't go hey spirit of the city make my Cardboard Palace magical. Think Rituals as less petitioning a specific local spirit and more you are performing rites to propitiate Heaven and Earth. If I wanted a Kinfolk who can reliably perform rituals I would give them something like Sorcery and use Garou rites as the foci for rituals like a Summoning ritual or a warding ritual. Or I would have it the Garou of a Caern established a long standing tradition where a very select kinfolk has a specific rite, like the right of cleansing in a cave pond, work under certain conditions.

            But in general don't expect rituals to work like clockwork for Kinfolk. It works for Garou because they are Garou.


            It is a time for great deeds!

            Comment


            • #7
              Fair enough why I was asking for ways to create Goodwill with the spirit world.

              as of yet came up that Spirits will be more inclined to help empower a rite Being performed on behalf of a sept Where the kinfolks simply a proxy for those who are covered in the Pact then Something being done for selfish gain.

              e,g,Performing a Rite of binding to create a Talen for your Septs Stockpiles Performing a Rite of cleansing on the Site of a murder.


              One other thing if a Kinfolks forged alliances with some spirits they may be able to perform some rites very well but not others.



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              • #8
                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                But in general don't expect rituals to work like clockwork for Kinfolk. It works for Garou because they are Garou.
                I had interpreted the rare occasion of Kinfolk having Gnosis meaning that they are connected to the Pacts of the Fera. They have the spiritual soul, just not the transforming powers of their brethren. As such, with Gnosis, it works as intended.
                If they don't have Gnosis, and they're trying to make things work with the spirits, then they can't rely on the formal rituals, each bargain is negotiated with the specific spirit that's willing to help in exchange for Chimanage.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                  I had interpreted the rare occasion of Kinfolk having Gnosis meaning that they are connected to the Pacts of the Fera. They have the spiritual soul, just not the transforming powers of their brethren. As such, with Gnosis, it works as intended.
                  If they don't have Gnosis, and they're trying to make things work with the spirits, then they can't rely on the formal rituals, each bargain is negotiated with the specific spirit that's willing to help in exchange for Chimanage.
                  If that was the Case Kami would perform rituals, as would some Fomori. And I think each Fera has the rules of their Pact slightly different from each other. They can crack each others codes, like rituals sound like they are mostly just secrets as they can be stolen by others, but they might still have to adapt them, while Gifts only go up to Rank 3 otherwise you have to bargain for them as new gifts and each Gift is supposed to have a legendary deed attached to them, unless it was taught by that Stolen fire Ragabash Gift.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Not everyone with Gnosis - otherwise technically spirits could too!
                    Just Kinfolk that have the merit.

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                    • #11
                      curious

                      on a Related issue?

                      What Rites should be available to all changing breeds what rites available only to Garou?

                      safe to say Rite of cleansing is pretty universal?


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                      • #12
                        In general I'd say that some rites such as the rite of cleansing are universally useful enough to all varieties of fera to be nigh universal, but outside of the rites specifically written out for each changing breed, I'd say look at the rite in question and the fera's Gaian purpose and see if they have enough degree of overlap for you to personally justify it. If it's a rite for martial activities of some sort, almost everyone could potentially have it but the garou should certainly have it, unless it's honoring/given by specific spirits that garou don't necessarily have a relationship with.

                        So basically, two rules of thumb I'd offer as well as just RAW:
                        1. Is the rite directly useful for achieving the breed's purpose and duty (war for garou, culling for ratkin, traveling for corax, etc.)
                        2. Are the spirits involved with the rite ones that would be open to assisting the breed. (I.E. Your a corax? Great, Helios has your back, go forth and praise the sun)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Think Renown would Factor into things too?

                          Honor shows they can be trusted

                          Glory shows their Kinfolk of Relative importance, even if their still not covered in the Pact.

                          Wisdom shows their advise is worth listening too.


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                          • #14
                            On a personal scale, sure renown can be a noteworthy factor. Spirits and groups will naturally favor individuals who have the sort of renown that they favor. A Garou ritemaster is more likely to be willing to teach a garou kinfolk with renowned honor and wisdom then they are a ratkin kinfolk with renowned cunning after all. But that's just on the individual scale.

                            In general, amounts of the appropriate renown are very useful when dealing with spirits and fera. If you have glory renown then a spirit is instinctually more likely to care about what you say and be willing to take notice of you, then if you were some nobody trying to invoke them. If you have honor renown then a spirit will naturally be more willing to put faith in the deals you make, because you've proven yourself trustworthy before and are renowned for it. Someone renowned for their honor is more likely to honor the chiminage deal then someone whose not after all. Plus, then you have wisdom to prove that you'll be able to use the rite responsibly. All and all, renown can be very useful in learning rites, if only because it makes the potential teachers more likely to consider you worth teaching.

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                            • #15
                              Oh a curious thing?

                              Think Rite of Growth could be adapted for use by Kin?


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