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How do things work in a Giant pack?

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  • How do things work in a Giant pack?

    in changing ways it says packs of up to 50 garou do exist though their rare

    thoughts on what its like?

    to be that close to that many Garou

    Probaly doing mentoring within the pack.



  • #2
    I would presume such things are typically a number of sub-packs answering to a single alpha pack. At least that would be my guess.


    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
      in changing ways it says packs of up to 50 garou do exist though their rare

      thoughts on what its like?

      to be that close to that many Garou

      Probaly doing mentoring within the pack.

      I think that's more a Mobile Sept without a Caern than a "true" pack...

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      • #4
        Take anything in Changing Ways 20 with a grain of salt.

        Traditionally WtA has defined ~10-12 members the max for a pack before it gets split into small packs.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Lian View Post


          I think that's more a Mobile Sept without a Caern than a "true" pack...
          Id have to agree but I just found the idea cute being Trained by a packmate. mentored by a packmate.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post

            Id have to agree but I just found the idea cute being Trained by a packmate. mentored by a packmate.

            Why? The idea of multgenerational packs is a thing. Honestly I'd imagine it to be fairly common, Garou die... some survive. They take on new members in honor of the fallen.. the pack continues their names not forgotten.

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            • #7
              A 50 garou pack....is a sept. Like that is what a large collection of garou is called, Caern or no caern. Packs in WtA are at most 10 members, because they are squads you send to do specific jobs. Any larger and then it is a sept.


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              • #8
                I was about to say, 50 garou sounds more like two maybe even three septs combined (let alone a single pack). I can't imagine most septs are any more than 15-20 garou at a given time, though I imagine there are bigger ones depending on local circumstances.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                  A 50 garou pack....is a sept. Like that is what a large collection of garou is called, Caern or no caern. Packs in WtA are at most 10 members, because they are squads you send to do specific jobs. Any larger and then it is a sept.
                  True. But it was implied, although not stated, that septs are local, as in immobil.

                  A sept that was mobile in that way, what other sept would want them in or near their territroy?
                  50 garou is an army that multiple septs provide to assault a big treat. I mean 3 to 6 garou average is a normal pack. So 5 to 10 septs with send one to two packs for a large assault mission is 50 garou.

                  Also, the Guardians of the Caerns clearly states, that if you walked through the design of a sept and you had one garou for every position, as well as guardians apprioriate, then you half that number and that is the number of garou you actually have, because, well garou are a species declining in numbers. A traveling band of 50 garou seems kind of rediculous to me.

                  EDIT: But then a lot of W20 supplemental stuff does.

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                  • #10
                    There are situations of War Packs, and I believe they are either members of other packs, and individuals joining together for a temporary mission or crusade, such happened when like 25 Fianna and Bone Gnawers gathered together to hunt a Wyrm Creature they saw in a vision awakening, actually Mithras. They encountered Mithras and his Retinue of Ghouls and Mortals and were wiped out, while wiping out Mithras, who actually survived but was so helpless Monty ate him with no fight.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #11
                      There is a Rite to temporarily bind together a pack. Iirc there isn't a limit on the number of pack mates, however there is a mention that joining a pack while already with a pack is not necessarily something the original pack or its pack totem look fondly upon. As opposed to joining a Silver Pack, which is a whole other Rite.

                      But sure, such large groups might find together for a singular reason. Like within the Tribe Novels. But I can hardly see them staying together as a mobile sept.

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                      • #12
                        I have to agree with the folks above, at this point, thinking of this gathering in the terms of a typical pack no longer works as this is essentially a massive (by typical Garou pack standards) warband. Maybe back in the old days they were more common and perhaps in extremely rural and vast regions they can still be effective, but in the modern nights, I imagine it as a very temporary affair.

                        To address OP's main question though, I imagine that things would develop similarly to the typical pack on a broader scale. There is one Top Alpha who leads the pack (and since it's likely this is a war-time only affair, this leader likely leads until death or the pack's dissolution). There may be several cliques of 'sub-packs' that make up the larger body and each answer to a Low Alpha who act as betas to the Top Alpha. This would make sense if the pack was formed of several independent packs for a specific mission, it simply makes more sense for the Top Alpha to utilize the existing structures unless some clear issue arises and requires adjusting. In the unlikely case of a long-term or generational warband, I imagine it would look a bit differently though. Somewhat like a mobile sept with less formalized grouping and more that each garou operates independently within the pack and it's goals, while still taking part in the pecking order. There is only one true Alpha, but the use of Rank keeps everyone from the wisest elder to the lowest cub in place and where they need to be for things to function.

                        If one wanted to implement a large pack in the modern era, considering the Nation's low numbers, one might consider being flexible in their definition. One or two typical packs worth of garou supplemented by a few dozen well armed and trained kinfolk can potentially be very effective in the War Against the Wyrm. It might be difficult to operate this sort of arrangement in America or Western Europe, but in certain areas with less stable governing bodies and law enforcement, this sort of roving militia could be extremely effective.

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                        • #13
                          Once more, though; Why not just be a sept? A sept doesn't need a Caern (thought one without a caern is a rather sad sept indeed) and the roles of the group are more easily doled out, as there is a clear hierarchy in place.


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                          • #14
                            fair enough just it was an idea from changing ways I found interesting.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                              fair enough just it was an idea from changing ways I found interesting.
                              I'd say play Forsaken then, they actually have in-setting reason for larger (and multi-specie) packs.

                              Not the first Changing Ways aspect that makes me think Forsaken was a lil' too much in the brain when writing it.


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