Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Lupus are not hard to play- a counterargument on perspective

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    They always have Freebies. Lupus PCs are restricted in the type of Abilities they can purchase (and all characters cannot purchase Abilities past 3 dots in their 13/9/5 stage of character creation). But they can buy anything they'd like with Freebies. And since Freebies are available during character creation, a player can develop their character and take into account what their character has learned after their First Change - certainly a good amount of time after it. So they could buy off their Flaws and buy any other thing they'd like. If a lupus wants to buy Drive or Firearms at character creation, they can - they just have to do it with Freebies.

    Furthermore, I think all PCs SHOULD be relatively fresh from their Rite of Passage. What their experience as Garou reflects is their time as cubs, not time past their Rite of Passage. Certainly, their time as a cub can be substantial, but I think their time as cliaths - the time after their rite of passage - should not be too long.

    But I certainly don't believe a lupus character must be a "wild wolf" forever. I think some human activity should be OK (except perhaps for Red Talons, as they have a complicating factor in their roleplay that other lupus do not have). But even here, I think some human type activity is OK). Certainly for certain tribes (like Children of Gaia and even Silver Fangs), their lupus will likely have a lot of homid style behavior.

    At this point, I think it's good to mention other things that end up restricting roleplay of lupus. In the Sample Renown Rewards, there are Breed renown examples under Garou Relations & Society that says Lupus use too many human tools and Weaver things. This is categorically different than Homid and Metis penalties (homids are penalized for NOT acting in their other nature, and metis are penalized by trying to hide their status of "Gaia's punishment"). Only lupus are penalized by acting outside their breed. It is not a major penalty, but is indicative of the idea that lupus should not learn about their other form. This is another way the game says "don't act like you are a homid".

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
      But I certainly don't believe a lupus character must be a "wild wolf" forever. I think some human activity should be OK (except perhaps for Red Talons, as they have a complicating factor in their roleplay that other lupus do not have). But even here, I think some human type activity is OK). Certainly for certain tribes (like Children of Gaia and even Silver Fangs), their lupus will likely have a lot of homid style behavior.
      At the end of the day, this is the biggest reason I made this thread. Because there a guides how lupus -should- be wild wolves forever...even if they have been zoo-raised or raised by humans. I dislike the renown chart for that lupus section, but I understand that it is a way to stop powergaming.

      There are guides how lupus couldn't POSSIBLY learn thing A or thing X EVER, which is why W20 has a statement in lupus section about them learning about human languages and such.

      To offer examples of how to play a lupus character without having to be TOO complicated, I offered up the two roleplays where the players playing wild wolves with culture still manage to make good RP regardless.

      Another example.


      My gallery.

      Comment


      • #33
        As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think another reason why some STs make it very hard for PCs to play a lupus is that they don't know how to run a chronicle that treats a lupus differently than if it were homid. Since that is the case, a lupus PC actually gets in the way of the ST from running the game as they want. A lupus PC would just be a distraction to them, so they effectively ban them.

        Garou are mainly supposed to be living out in the wilderness, or at least the rural areas, according to the setting. Yet I'd wager well over 90% of games are based around a large city. And certainly the vast majority of antagonists are based on some kind of human concept that requires PCs to oppose them in heavily human centric games.

        So theoretically, what does an ST do if the game was about 3-5 PCs who were all lupus? Let's assume all the lupus PCs are great players and overcome any of the traditional objections against them. What kind of game is the ST going to run for them? I think most STs wouldn't know what to do. All of their plots and antagonists are based around human concerns and concepts. It requires PCs to navigate corporate politics, the urban environment, human social interactions and societal breakdown. Those are all good and fun, but it is hard to see how lupus PCs would interact with them.

        I think it is possible to run a wilderness setting game that is lupus-centric, and make it just as satisfying and genre appropriate as the standard WtA game. But there isn't much support for that to guide STs. Supplements like The Ways of the Wolf was supposed to bridge that gap, but that book and others actually didn't.

        This is something I've actually given a lot of thought on, and while I don't know if I could run a completely successful chronicle like that, I could probably get it 80% or so right.

        Comment


        • #34
          At that point, I'd ask the ST why they didn't put their foot down about there being 3 lupus in a city based game? ST is the arbiter of themes after all.

          Anyway, I think in this online forum games are actually a bit better, since the players can choose between city or the sept's area.

          Though, I do find it funny how people bring up the 'lupus not use human tools' renown dock, but almost never the two ones dedicated to homids. I'd say often it is more likely to see someone play a homid that is just a human shapeshifter with no Rage than a lupus that is too human.


          My gallery.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
            At that point, I'd ask the ST why they didn't put their foot down about there being 3 lupus in a city based game? ST is the arbiter of themes after all.
            Exactly. They would decline it, just like they decline any player playing a lupus. I am not saying an ST would allow multiple lupus PCs and then scratch their head trying to think of something to do. I am saying this is a (real, but not directly expressed) reason why some (many?) STs discourage any PC being a lupus. They just don't want to deal with it because it does change a game, and they may not want to deal with it.

            Comment


            • #36
              I'm not sure Breed without Auspice or Tribe can really be viewed in a vacuum. The Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers have Lupus despite their city focus. I've seen very successful Lupus concepts that work in urban settings out of the Children of Gaia, Silent Striders, Silver Fangs, and Uktena; particularly Ragabash and Philodox.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                I'm not sure Breed without Auspice or Tribe can really be viewed in a vacuum. The Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers have Lupus despite their city focus. I've seen very successful Lupus concepts that work in urban settings out of the Children of Gaia, Silent Striders, Silver Fangs, and Uktena; particularly Ragabash and Philodox.
                Aaand we circle back to the 'lupus characters are not fresh from the change' point. I think it is very interesting how people say lupus should act like lupus but what they mean is act like wolf-kinfolk at times.


                My gallery.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I wouldn't say that. Some of those characters were "fresh out of the woods," and some weren't. It's just that there's more to adapting to an urban game than being born human (of course Metis are really even worse in an urban focused game unless you're very careful with deformities).

                  I agree that people lose sight of "act like a lupus," by being too literal about "act like a wolf," instead of keeping in mind a character's upbringing as you would for any other character.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                    I agree that people lose sight of "act like a lupus," by being too literal about "act like a wolf," instead of keeping in mind a character's upbringing as you would for any other character.
                    This is what I meant, this is the very crux of why I made this thread. Gnosis 5 or not, in this thread alone we are arguing over language learning skills. Which wouldn't be an issue with any other breed. Heck, look at some fera. No one is expecting a feral born nagah to still slither about, for example.

                    One thing I often do to showcase inhumanity in my characters, is the eating of cats. Though not typical wolf prey, it can help to portray that the character does not see the animal as a companion like a homid would.


                    My gallery.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                      One thing I often do to showcase inhumanity in my characters, is the eating of cats. Though not typical wolf prey, it can help to portray that the character does not see the animal as a companion like a homid would.
                      I think this is a good point. If the PC can develop a half dozen (or more) character tics or quirks that showcase their lupus nature, I think it would go a long way of reminding other PCs and the ST of their character's lupus nature. Brainstorm with the ST and your fellow PCs, and you can come up with a strong list of things that are not disruptive to the game, but provide strong flavor.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                        I think this is a good point. If the PC can develop a half dozen (or more) character tics or quirks that showcase their lupus nature, I think it would go a long way of reminding other PCs and the ST of their character's lupus nature. Brainstorm with the ST and your fellow PCs, and you can come up with a strong list of things that are not disruptive to the game, but provide strong flavor.
                        Indeed, it is really fun and isn't putting a burden on the lupus player or the other players.

                        One thing that is fun but surprisingly distrupting; Dog ownership. You won't believe how many players get REALLY offended that the lupus character considers ALL dogs weavery wolves and those owning them not good garou.


                        My gallery.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          We should also keep in mind how quickly human toddlers learn human language: once they start picking it up, it's dozens of words a week, and in the span of a year or so they can go from not speaking at all to speaking in full sentences to parents asking "Where did you learn that word?" I see no reason why a lupus garou shouldn't be on a similar learning curve. For lupus PCs, learning big words, misunderstanding jargon and figures of speech, and trying to learn to read, can add some fun roleplaying opportunities for the pack to chew on. Another fun challenge: how do you teach a lupus garou what an hour is? It's probably not all that different from how you'd teach a kindergartener, or if math is too advanced for a young lupus still trying to develop his language skills, maybe you can teach him by analogy: the daytime is like a pizza, the nighttime is like another pizza, and an hour is like a slice of pizza. It won't get him to the train station on time, but it at least gives him a rough concept to work with in a relatively human-centric world. Days, moons, seasons, and years, of course, are natural, concrete units of time that a lupus would have no trouble understanding. We should also keep in mind that wolves are among the most socially intelligent creatures on earth. It's no coincidence that domesticating wolves gave us "man's best friend." By age 30, a lupus garou should have no more trouble blending into human society than a homid garou does.

                          Big thumbs up for this conversation, but I think y'all haven't yet considered the elephant in the room. What if the real problem isn't that lupus PCs are too human, but that homid PCs are too human? In truth, all Garou are literally half wolf and half human, not a human with a little bit of wolf in her, or a wolf with a little bit of human in her. When a lupus garou goes through her first change, she's suddenly half human; likewise, when a homid garou goes through her first change, she's suddenly half wolf. Blow your players' minds with that!
                          Last edited by Wilson; 08-13-2019, 01:49 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Wilson View Post
                            Big thumbs up for this conversation, but I think y'all haven't yet considered the elephant in the room. What if the real problem isn't that lupus PCs are too human, but that homid PCs are too human? In truth, all Garou are literally half wolf and half human, not a human with a little bit of wolf in her, or a wolf with a little bit of human in her. When a lupus garou goes through her first change, she's suddenly half human; likewise, when a homid garou goes through her first change, she's suddenly half wolf. Blow your players' minds with that!
                            Well, it supposedly has been that way since the lupus got frustrated about the end of the Impergium...

                            Question is, what behaviour or adjectives one would describe to a human, rather than a wolf ?
                            Impulsive vs. planning, aggressive vs. peaceful, diplomatic vs. direct. All human characteristics basically.
                            Even "instinct-driven" is something that one describes to a human.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                              Well, it supposedly has been that way since the lupus got frustrated about the end of the Impergium...

                              Question is, what behaviour or adjectives one would describe to a human, rather than a wolf ?
                              Impulsive vs. planning, aggressive vs. peaceful, diplomatic vs. direct. All human characteristics basically.
                              Even "instinct-driven" is something that one describes to a human.
                              I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Are you asking what the temperamental differences are between a typical wolf and a typical human?

                              We should also keep in mind that spending time in the lupus form will rearrange a homid's perspective in surprising ways and perhaps change their personality to some degree. Smelling the world with a canine nose would be as big an explosion of experience for a homid as thinking about the world with a human mind would be for a lupus. The increased range of hearing and better low light vision would be interesting too. The predatory instinct in wolves is much stronger than it is in humans, at least in wild wolves vs. in domesticated humans. Food probably tastes different, depending on which form you're in. And this of course doesn't even address how stepping sideways will rearrange your perspective, as well as having to deal with true Garou rage, but that's true for all breeds.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                                I wonder if some kind of simple mechanical change could help. Like make the distribution 1/2/3, and then say the lupus PC needs to take some kind of appropriate 2 point flaw associated with their animal nature. It might be something like Pack Mentality or Territorial, or a supernatural flaw that simulates pop culture visions of the werewolf like Banned Transformation (in vicinity of wolfsbane), Forced Transformation, Mark of the Predator, or Sign of the Wolf. The lupus essentially gets two free Freebies for having 2 extra Gnosis, but pays for it with a flaw. It is an easy house rule to remember, isn't punishing for the lupus PC, and allows the possibility of the PC later paying it off through appropriate roleplay as the lupus learns more about himself and Garou/human society.

                                That would eliminate power gamers from gravitating to the lupus breed, leaving that option only to people who want to truly play a lupus.
                                I think if you're going to adjust the rules, starting gnosis at 2/3/4 is a better idea than forcing a 2-point flaw to "correct" the perceived imbalance. Don't forget that homids and metis deal aggravated damage with their claws while in lupus form, which lupus don't. That alone, in my opinion, is something like a 1-point flaw. Also, lupus characters in homid form will get burned with aggravated damage for simply touching silver, so be careful not to shake hands with anyone wearing a silver ring, and rue the day you get invited to dinner and they give you silverwear to eat with.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X