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  • Armor Fetish-es

    In a late game I had my character crafted an armor from thunder wyrm skin and bound an earth elemental.
    What stats would you give to the armor, and what effect would you give to it as a fetish ?

    Also feel free to add your own armour fetishes.
    Last edited by Story Letter; 08-04-2019, 04:31 PM.

  • #2
    I'm not entirely sure, because binding an Earth Elemental to Wyrm based components is a bit of a mismatch of concepts.

    I think a properly treated bit of skin like that should be pretty good armor as it's mundane stats, but armor stats tend to depend on what style of armor you go for. I'd pick one of the standard armors and pick between +2 AR, or +1 AR and remove 1 worth of penalty.

    Wyrm parts based Fetishes tend to be used by the Garou to make either disguise Fetishes to make it easier to blend in with Wyrm creatures before striking, or extra damage to Wyrm creatures by hitting them with like vs. like.

    Earth isn't really used a lot of the example Fetishes. But tends to be associated with stability, endurance, toughness, possible area attacks (aka Umbraquake).

    I'm sure there's ways to mix it, but you could also play with the idea of the Earth Elemental not entirely liking its new home.

    --------------

    I don't have many armor Fetishes, mostly because armor doesn't do a lot in the system. Three general concepts I've used a few times:

    1) Armor Charm. Pretty simple... just find a spirit that has the Armor Charm for your Fetish, and basically let the wearer use the Armor Charm for themselves. I usually say the base Gnosis rating of the Fetish or the users Fetish, whichever is higher for how much it grants. Stacking with Gifts like Luna's Armor tends to mean higher level Fetishes.

    2) The Hero's Utility Armor. A play on superheroes wearing their outfits under their clothing, and utility belts holding way too much stuff, the armor turns modern military style armor into a skin-tight bodysuit without losing it's protection, and acts as a highly specialized Magpie's Swag for combat gear. Basically, let SWAT team style Glass Walkers move around without being seen noticed.

    3) Porcupine Armor. A pretty obvious one... activate it to raise quills, do damage to people that try to attack you.

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    • #3
      Its just that making an armour that adds more soak when activated looks a bit poor as an option, maybe making the armour add successes instead of dice.

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      • #4
        While it might be up to the ST a bit, generally armor dice work against silver weapons, so there's a good reason for more armor dice (esp. if it stacks with Luna's Armor for pretty huge Soak pools even against silver).

        Increased successes on soak is a good bonus; esp. if it works against silver. I'd probably do something like each success on the activation roll converts one die of armor into an automatic success.

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        • #5
          I think if cleansed Thunder-Wyrm Hide should be fine.

          Since those are pretty strong, there might be an additional bonus in regards to strength.
          Another possibility is a disguise effect or a protection against certain wyrm powers in addition to regular soak bonuses.
          Also a re-usable Wyrm Scale talen effect would be possible.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            While it might be up to the ST a bit, generally armor dice work against silver weapons, so there's a good reason for more armor dice (esp. if it stacks with Luna's Armor for pretty huge Soak pools even against silver).

            Increased successes on soak is a good bonus; esp. if it works against silver. I'd probably do something like each success on the activation roll converts one die of armor into an automatic success.
            Also a good idea !

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            • #7
              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
              I think if cleansed Thunder-Wyrm Hide should be fine.

              Since those are pretty strong, there might be an additional bonus in regards to strength.
              Another possibility is a disguise effect or a protection against certain wyrm powers in addition to regular soak bonuses.
              Also a re-usable Wyrm Scale talen effect would be possible.
              Good ideas for further crafting.

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              • #8
                Give it Tremor Sense

                Spend a Gnosis point to detect movement for 100 yards around the bearer for the scene.

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                • #9
                  That seems a bit... little for something as hard to get as Thunder Wyrm skin.

                  As a general idea for Earth Elemental Fetishes, it's not bad, but it's something I'd expect out of a 1 or 2 dot Fetish depending on the Gnosis rating and how the detection is phrased. There's a huge number of sensory Gifts in the books as it is, and many are permanent upgrades that don't require activation rolls or spending anything to use (ex: Scent of Sight). If there is a need to activate, they're very broadly applicable (ex: Heighten Senses) or pretty major boosts (ex. :Eye of the Eagle, Cybersenses).

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                  • #10
                    True. But if the Fetish is higher in level, the fetish level might be relevant to compare against levels of cloaking powers, like Obfuscate and such. As per 2nd/rev crossover rules.

                    A statement like "Tremor Sense" however is kind of vague. I mean one has some idea how it should work, but how sensible is it, does it still need Perception+Alertness to recognise a certain being, and a lot more practical issues can arise.

                    Then again, there is 'Cyber senses' and having studied Sensorics at the university I have to say, the gift is design flaw. It allows to get any kind of technological sensor - without considering any relevant parameters, and with possibly films and TV shows as the only reference point, what such sensors can accomplish. Btw, that would include tremor sense.
                    If OPP back then had bothered to incorporate user feedback, like they later did with W20 Changing Breeds or W20 Rage across the World, 'Cyber Senses' might not have been simple copy&paste from revised.

                    'Cyber Senses' should read:
                    The character transforms parts of his body in a way that they mimic technologic sensors, like microphones, accelerometers, photo sensors for various wavelengths, radio antenna. How this transformations look-like is subject to discussion between player and ST, but could possibly include cameras for eyes, small radio dishes for ears, but don't have to show at all, if the transformation is internally.
                    System: The player rolls Wits + Science and spends a Gnosis. Every uneven success grants a 1 die bonus to all perception based dice pools for the current scene. All even successes reduce difficulties by 1 for such rolls, to a maximum reduction of 3.
                    It is assumed that the transformation includes everything necessary for the Cyber Senses to work in a meaningful way, like noise filter and precautions against unexpected high sensory input. The Cyber Senses however do not decrypt signals, so if one were to have an antenna for LTE frequencies one could focus on one active cellphone's signal, and possibly find its position, but not listen in to the conversation or data stream it broadcasts (unless other gifts or totem powers allow this).

                    With this one does have an abstract system, granting bonuses, without relying on arguments like "In Mission Impossible 2 there is clearly shown, that a infrared camera can show a clear image of people even through a wall and over half a mile away - and I want that for my cyber senses."

                    Back to topic:
                    Essentially a tremor sense like ability would be a nice and thematically fitting addition to powers one would normally expect for an armour.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                      True. But if the Fetish is higher in level, the fetish level might be relevant to compare against levels of cloaking powers, like Obfuscate and such. As per 2nd/rev crossover rules.
                      I'm never going to advise changing the guidelines for the power levels of Fetishes because of an ill-conceived crossover guideline that already massively disadvantages WtA.

                      Btw, that would include tremor sense.
                      I mean, tremor sense is literally something Frontine spitballed here.

                      Though I'd assume it's on par with the sensory abilities of animals that can sense vibrations through the ground to determine the approximate location, speed, and size of other things in their environment. Elephants can communicate over multiple miles using infrasonic sounds they detect with their feed. Some snakes can effectively use echolocation using vibrations in the ground.

                      'Cyber Senses' should read:
                      If this was the feedback... I'm not surprised they ignored it. That's really clunky.

                      I get that the RAW Cybersenses is vague and relies more on lack of expertise on what you could do with it, but the activation roll and weird mixed bonuses is needlessly complicated, and your write-up does very little to clear up the vagueness besides specifying that it doesn't decrypt signals (though Plug and Play makes that restriction kinda pointless).

                      With this one does have an abstract system, granting bonuses, without relying on arguments like "In Mission Impossible 2 there is clearly shown, that a infrared camera can show a clear image of people even through a wall and over half a mile away - and I want that for my cyber senses."
                      Nothing... actually stops that from happening though. If you use Cybersenses to give yourself an internal infrared vision, having a set bonus to rolls doesn't stop the argument of whether or not I can even make the roll to see through something at some range because I saw it in a movie and don't know the real limitations of said tech.

                      Back to topic:
                      Essentially a tremor sense like ability would be a nice and thematically fitting addition to powers one would normally expect for an armour.
                      I can see the themes for the Earth Elemental part.... but where's the theme for either the Thunder Wyrm skin or the armor? Armor isn't thematically a sensory booster.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        I'm never going to advise changing the guidelines for the power levels of Fetishes because of an ill-conceived crossover guideline that already massively disadvantages WtA.
                        There is guidelines to fetish levels in accordance to powers that aren't mimicing gifts ?

                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        I mean, tremor sense is literally something Frontine spitballed here.
                        My mind went to D&D immediately, for it has been a monster trait there for at least since edition 3.0.
                        But I guess it is a valid sensoric impression, somewhat rooted in Fantasy and the real-live animal kingdom, like you pointed out.


                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        If this was the feedback... I'm not surprised they ignored it. That's really clunky.
                        Still faster then arguing the the ST.
                        In any case, they didn't come up with anything else, at all.

                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        I get that the RAW Cybersenses is vague and relies more on lack of expertise on what you could do with it, but the activation roll and weird mixed bonuses is needlessly complicated, and your write-up does very little to clear up the vagueness besides specifying that it doesn't decrypt signals (though Plug and Play makes that restriction kinda pointless).
                        Well, I was mistaken on the copy&paste from revised, since they removed the activation roll in W20.

                        Reducing the difficulty 1 per success is kinda broken, since probabilities shift hugely with moderate dice pools.
                        Granting a 1 die bonus per success doesn't do the gift justice, since at high difficulties the larger dice pool isn't that much of a help and rolling it is even more annoying.

                        So, the mixed bonus, for me, is a good compromise. If one uses Vampire5 like static difficulties and just changes the dice pools, than that would be okay.

                        I'd argue that Plug&Play doesn't circumvent encryption either. There's Eyes of the Weaver, iirc, to do that. But sure, turning your hairs into antennas for a gnosis is kind of pointless, if you could turn you phone into one for a willpower point - except in cases when you don't have your phone with you...

                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        Nothing... actually stops that from happening though. If you use Cybersenses to give yourself an internal infrared vision, having a set bonus to rolls doesn't stop the argument of whether or not I can even make the roll to see through something at some range because I saw it in a movie and don't know the real limitations of said tech.
                        But you could simply assign a difficulty or success threshold an roll with said bonuses.


                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        I can see the themes for the Earth Elemental part.... but where's the theme for either the Thunder Wyrm skin or the armor? Armor isn't thematically a sensory booster.
                        Well, Thunderwyrms are giant dune-like, worm, living under the soil and might be able to sense what's happening on the surface just like worms sensing rain by rain drop impact on the soil.

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                        • #13
                          heinrich Thunderwyyrm = Earth sense, ground tunelling, rock smashing jaws, skin like steel.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                            There is guidelines to fetish levels in accordance to powers that aren't mimicing gifts ?
                            Hammer & Klaive, p 46-47.

                            Still faster then arguing the the ST.
                            My point though, is that you didn't remove the aspect of the Gift that could lead to this: the ST and the player having vastly different ideas of what a given technological "sense" can actually perceive.


                            Well, Thunderwyrms are giant dune-like, worm, living under the soil and might be able to sense what's happening on the surface just like worms sensing rain by rain drop impact on the soil.
                            Normal earthworms, and Dune sandworms do have some vibration senses, but they're pretty imprecise and easily fooled. I'm not sure I'd say this really gets to thematic consideration for Thunder Wyrm skin armor; esp. the armor part.

                            Originally posted by Story Letter View Post
                            heinrich Thunderwyyrm = Earth sense, ground tunelling, rock smashing jaws, skin like steel.
                            But the last one's the one that's clearly most evident to making armor out of it...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Well armour bonuses and strength bonuses were mentioned before, iirc.

                              The Tunneling gift ( metis, iirc ) would possibly be a power to consider.
                              Also, Gnawr, for biting through everything...

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