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  • Garou + Kinfolk Demographics

    I am crowdsourcing this to the group. I have two questions. First, what should be the population ratio between Garou and Kinfolk? Second, what percentage of Garou should be born with one Garou as parent, and what percentage should be born from two kinfolk (ignore what percentage is metis for right now)?

    I know the game and various fan sites have provided percentages for the likelihood of Garou offspring. I am not interested in those. There are lots of problems with the math. And some of those rules seem to go against the general setting. They don't help me populate the setting. As an ST, it's much more important to me to figure out if I have 20 Garou at a sept, then how many kinfolk should there be nearby as well (nearby being relative, in terms of geographic area it might be quite large). I don't have to define all those kinfolk as NPCs. I just have to do some of them that are important, and the rest can be background figures.

    But it is important if I say there are 100 kinfolk for every Garou, or 200, or 350, or 500, or 1000. That's total number, not just kinfolk of child bearing years. So it includes young kids and older people. Likewise, I think the game is different if 10% of all Garou have one Garou parent, or if 20% or 50% do. That also directly ties into how many kinfolk there are, and determines how important kinfolk-kinfolk mating is to the Nation. And it helps determine how many kinfolk might be unknowing rather than having knowledge, or how many may get lost through intermarriage with normal members of the Flock.

    There isn't any one correct answer, but I'm curious to see if there are any converging similarities among the player base, or if there are several different scenarios players gravitate towards.

    Several things have prompted this question for me. First. after looking at various online games, I'm surprised how many PCs have a background where one of their parents is a Garou, and then they also have several Garou siblings as well. That is very different than how I imagine it. Second, I am in the midst of population kinfolk for my game's sept. I consciously trying to make them a more important element of the setting. So the question arose how many kinfolk should be nearby the sept in order to provide that number of Garou. I have some long established Garou lineages, Garou who had knowing kinfolk parents, who had unknowing kinfolk parents, who had "lost" kinfolk parents, and Lost Cubs. Each of them would have different numbers of kinfolk to that Garou character. So I'm just looking for general numbers for the community as a whole.

  • #2
    The issue I would say is that the method for producing Kinfolk and Garou is at odds with the way things are presented in the setting? I definately feel like your view is the way things are often presented, but if you have a couple generations of Garou pcs.. you start getting one who are family by the whole "ten percent" rule(or 20 percent with certain abilities!) This also HEAVILY breaks the whole Homid to Beast kin dynamic homids GENERALLY only have one kid per cycle and Beast breeds generally have groups.

    So as there's no good mechanic for "random lost cub" but there is a good mechanic for "my dad had 3 kids breed true" you get extended games with families who are deep in the supernatural.

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    • #3
      If you build a local setting, a sept or a region, a protectorate then the kinfolk to garou ratio isn't so much determined by biology than by local history.

      In our LARP game, we didn't want to have a huge amount of kinfolk NPCs around, so the sept was nearly wiped out when we started and most kinfolk we murdered by the wyrm forces while the Caern was under attack, so the garou couldn't send out packs to protect or even avenge their own. Those who survived but their relative garous had died also moved away, to caerns and septs where there were other relatives. So, garou to kin ratio for our LARP sept, hugly in favour for the garou.

      Another sept in the area is an NPC sept of the Black Furies. They are an old sept and while they are also really strong in garou numbers their kinfolk is also pretty numerous and they form a closely knit community, even while spread across a relatively large mountain range with lots of small villages. With the introduction of "kenning" as a term for kinfolk who are involved with garou regularly and know about them, this sept has a high "kenning kinfolk" ratio.

      Another NPC sept in the area is a Fianna sept, struck with depression and melancholia ever since their Caern was destroyed ten generations ago. They inhabit another mountain range, however, their community had crumbled and large chunks of their kinfolk families grew apart from the their sept. So, in the region lost cubs are fairly regular.

      Another NPC sept, has close to no kinfolk at all. When a sept of Get of Fenris attacked and unexpectedly conquered a Pit after sustaining heavy losses their high and mid ranking garou returned home to reorganise their sept structure. The low ranking Gets who were to left the site of the Pit together with some Shadow Lord opportunists were mostly those without immediate family in the sept. And when they defended the Pit against BSDs who wanted to retake it and their original sept being slow to respond, they formed their own sept - but no kinfolk with them.

      -----------

      As far as character backgrounds go, our LARP game's go-to-setting is being raised by one biological parent (kin) and one adoptive parent (kin or human), with a biological garou parent usually not in in the picture (usually dead). Sibling garous are rare, but not unheard of, especially if the character concept of two players is to be siblings. However, we have often aunts and uncles who are garou (biological not the fianna godfather like approach).


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      • #4
        Originally posted by heinrich View Post
        If you build a local setting, a sept or a region, a protectorate then the kinfolk to garou ratio isn't so much determined by biology than by local history.
        Regardless of what you may want for any individual sept, on average there has to be some kind of ratio that applies to most septs. Obviously, there is likely a bell curve statistically on how septs have different ratios. Saying, "well, it depends on the individual sept" isn't helpful.

        It's possible people just haven't thought about this as a means to constructing septs and all the ancillary people behind it.

        As far as character backgrounds go, our LARP game's go-to-setting is being raised by one biological parent (kin) and one adoptive parent (kin or human), with a biological garou parent usually not in in the picture (usually dead). Sibling garous are rare, but not unheard of, especially if the character concept of two players is to be siblings.
        If I understand you right, in your game almost all homid Garou are born from having a Garou parent, instead of two kinfolk parents.



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        • #5
          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
          Regardless of what you may want for any individual sept, on average there has to be some kind of ratio that applies to most septs. Obviously, there is likely a bell curve statistically on how septs have different ratios. Saying, "well, it depends on the individual sept" isn't helpful.
          Well, maybe not for you.

          My point being: You can justify any ratio with local history. It isn't fruitful to get a headache about a global ratio just to adjust it for the purposes of a local sept anyway.

          Also, you already stated in the initial post, that you find the math based on the rules is not accurate. So where else would one start to derive a ratio from, if it is meant to be global?


          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
          If I understand you right, in your game almost all homid Garou are born from having a Garou parent, instead of two kinfolk parents.
          There are basically only homid characters. Rarely someone plays a Metis. And yes, most have a garou parent, or at least grandparent.

          A while back it was calculated, that children from garou parentage and children from solely kin-parentage should be the same amount - globally in a year. For the chance of a true born kid to solely kin parents is lower, but there are so much more children born, that the absolute amount should be roughly equal to kids born to a garou parent.
          For the LARP game, for some reason, one garou parent has become the standard however. Even if said parent is unknown or dead when the character starts into play.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by heinrich View Post
            For the LARP game, for some reason, one garou parent has become the standard however. Even if said parent is unknown or dead when the character starts into play.
            Its because its easier to built plot on rather than "I'm just random person who has no connection". Its also EASIER for people to wrap their heads around.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
              Also, you already stated in the initial post, that you find the math based on the rules is not accurate. So where else would one start to derive a ratio from, if it is meant to be global?
              Because some people likely have some idea in the back as to the relative population of kinfolk to Garou even if they never state it outright. That isn't dependent on any kind of math or official ruling, but based on what they think is right based on their expectations of the genre and the game.

              And having some kind of benchmark is helpful to people because it can help establish what a typical sept is like, and therefore gives them something to veer from if they want another sept to be different. Otherwise there is no reason to believe any sept is unusual due to its history because there is significantly less or more kinfolk nearby.

              The reason the math for Garou pregnancies is useless is because it is insufficient to determine any kind of demographics. Having a % of Garou versus Kinfolk births is useless for anything other than a quick means to provide an answer to a single PC. Because demographics depends on how many kids they have (from each kind of parent), how long their life is, the overall birth rate versus death rate, and so on. And establishing those kind of details is actually irrelevant because people really aren't interested in that. But how many kinfolk exist per Garou would be useful to STs establishing backgrounds for their septs.

              For the purpose of your games, this may not be important, but it is certainly an issue for me as I'm trying to build a good sandbox, and one aspect of that is to have some general idea of numbers. I can then adjust as needed. Obviously I can come up with figures on my own, but by asking others for what they use, it gives me some benchmarks and might produce an interesting discussion on kinfolk-Garou relations, and how people interpret the setting.

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              • #8
                Well, if you have the percentage of garou born true and for a single birth than you would have to make some assumptions.
                - Number of kids per average per couple.
                - Number of kinfolk/kinfolk kids that aren't kinfolk themselves or leave the sept to pursue something else in life - and therefore be eliminated from the equation.
                - Garou/human (or what ever non-kinfolk like changeling) kids and their born true ration (unless you consider that marginal, I would).

                And with those assumptions you could simulate the population changes over several generations. Meaning that you use the rule of thumb for a sept size as a target number for the garou born in each generation and tweak your parameters in a way that this number is constant by generation 10 or so. Voilá you have a number of kinfolk and can determine the ratio.

                You could also tweak the parameters. For Get of Fenris one would assume violent death and non-childbearing mothers (like Karin Jarlsdottir in the Tribe Novels) would reduce the average children per person, but the loss of kinfolk is also not as high, since Get communities are tightly knit and family is a high virtue. Children of Gaia on the other hand might have more births per person, with free love and the miracle of live and such, but their kinfolk also might wander off or leave the sept to pursue their own goals, because of personal freedom and stuff.

                ----


                That said, the number of kinfolk for a sept in my opinion is solely dependent on the age and influence a spet has - with about 5 to 8 times the garou population in kinfolk.

                That said, the PGttG has the only non-fiction account of kinfolk live within a sept. I can't remember any word about the number of kinfolk there, but the impression I had was that for every garou there'd be a spouse, sibling or in-law, as well as a parent and a kid or two. So that would be 4 to 5 people per garou - but I assume a sept might have a few kin that aren't relatives to a garou in the current generation anymore.

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                • #9
                  I am not talking about kinfolk actually in the sept in the sense of the physical boundaries of the sept. I am mean all the kinfolk that potentially "belongs" to the sept in the sense that Garou born from those kinfolk will likely become sept members, or would be eligible theoretically to become mates (in the kind of arranged mating that some tribes practice), or are kinfolk that somehow assist the Garou members of the sept in the way the Kinfolk background as used. So geographically, they could be quite distant from the sept, although likely within the same protectorate.

                  I would consider 5-8 kinfolk per Garou to be incredibly low by that standard since the kinfolk must include lots of people who aren't immediate family members of the Garou. I believe most kinfolk probably do not have an immediate member of their family that is Garou, and many don't even have extended family members like cousins or grandparents.

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                  • #10
                    Well, that is kind of difficult. I'd assume the number of kinfolk that are 'part' of a sept means people who are involved with the garou of the sept and sept affairs to a degree that usual for kinfolk that want to be involved.
                    But, there are also
                    • ....lesser involved kinfolk, just living there but not involving themselves too much into the affairs of the sept.
                    • ....those who have moved away, but are still in communication with the sept and feel themselves as part of the sept community, despite living abroad.
                    • ....those kinfolk who originate from some place else, and now moved into the vicinity of the sept but aren't participating in the sept's affairs, possibly not even knowing about the sept.
                    The question is, what do you define as "sept" and what as "protectorate". As far as I see it, a sept is a community, while their protectorate is the area they feel responsible for. Depending on the size and convidence of a sept and the distance to the next sept, there might be an area that isn't protectorate of any sept.

                    So, I'd argue, the son of Sept Leader 'Mightyfist' who moves from rural Idaho to Boston for his law degree is still closely tied into sept affairs, for his status, despite living far away, while Bob, who didn't have a garou in his family for three generations still lives in the same old farmhouse bud doesn't care for the garou and they don't care for him more than for any other human in their territory. Doesn't mean he wouldn't help and keep his mouth shut when a bleeding Crinos needs a place to hide, but you won't see him with the other kinfolk providing a buffet for the celebration after the Moot.

                    So, it is really difficult to find a guideline who to count as kinfolk and who not. I mean, Silver Fangs have a Rite to find a suitable mate, but that Rite could lead them far outside their protectorate. Also, a kinfolk line that had been without true bred children in a while might suddenly have a pure blooded member who would catch the eye of every garou of the opposite sex within the sept, suddenly drawing the family that hadn't been involved with the garou affairs that much back into the spotlight.

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                    • #11
                      I don't understand why you are making this so hard. I'll go back to my original post.

                      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                      I am crowdsourcing this to the group. I have two questions. First, what should be the population ratio between Garou and Kinfolk? Second, what percentage of Garou should be born with one Garou as parent, and what percentage should be born from two kinfolk (ignore what percentage is metis for right now)?
                      You are the one who didn't want to talk about a general ratio and wanted to talk about specific septs, and then start using all sorts of reasons why you can't give an answer because every sept is different.

                      I am only interested in an individual sept in the sense of using it as an example.

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                      • #12
                        While I was hoping to see other people give me their ideas, or what they've seen in play, it seems this is something people just don't think about. So while I didn't want to give my ideas up front (as the thread would most likely be about defending or explaining it, rather than crowdsourcing what others think), I can't end the thread without saying something!

                        First, here are my assumptions about the setting. Others may have other assumptions, and that's fine. This isn't about someone being right, and everyone else being wrong. Also, this is only in the aggregate - there is a bell curve like everything else, and you can always find a lot of assumptions.
                        • I want kinfolk to be an important source of Garou so it underscores the importance of kinfolk communities that Garou born from them make up the majority of Garou.
                        • Garou and kinfolk tend to have a higher degree of children than the Flock around them does on average. While they are a dying people, they know this and are trying to make up for it.
                        • Male Garou have significantly more children then female Garou, simply because the males can impregnate multiple women and can invest less time in child rearing. Female Garou can only have one child at a time, and there is significantly more "distraction" for them in regards to pregnancy and child rearing. So out of the Garou born from other Garou, there are more who have Garou fathers than Garou mothers.
                        • Not all of these kinfolk children stay within the community. There is a drift of kinfolk leaving those communities for whatever reason and integrating into the Flock.
                        • The decline of overall Garou is noticeable only as the generations pass. This generally isn't seen in the course of any chronicle, but an old Garou past his sixties will notice there seems to be a slight, but observable difference in the number of Garou, and recall that the older Garou said the same thing. This might not be seen in the population of his sept, but will be noticed in the sense that the old level 1 caern out yonder that was always tended by a pack of Garou, now doesn't have anyone around anymore.
                        • That most kinfolk a PC has with the Kinfolk background (which range between 2-50) are likely mostly immediate or extended family, or their friends and neighbors. So the ratio should be inclusive of those numbers.
                        • The numbers of kinfolk required must be low enough that any kinfolk population can disappear within the greater community. For example, the US and Canada only have around 6 million Native Americans, and a total population of around 360 million. Yet the Wendigo need to be a fairly populous tribe, and their human kinfolk can only come from that stock. We need to avoid a situation where large numbers of the real population are kinfolk, rather than ordinary humans - ideally well under 1%. It also means that kinfolk communities must necessarily be small. They aren't going to populate entire towns of 100,000 people.
                        So that being said, this is what I'm currently using.
                        • Garou born from other Garou make up around 25-33% of all Garou. The rest come from kinfolk.
                        • There are around 100 "dedicated" human kinfolk for every homid Garou. By "dedicated" I mean these kinfolk are being deliberately bred by the Garou. There is a large number of kenning kinfolk, and the Garou are actively overseeing them to find mates and protect those kinfolk who aren't mating. Besides this, there is an unknown number of "lost" kinfolk who have for all practical purposes abandoned the Garou. This is often a source of lost cubs who change without any preparation. I don't keep track of these Garou for story purposes. They only exist as a background element, an individual plot I may run, or backstory for a PC.
                        • That 100 number does not reflect the child bearing population, but the entire spectrum. Because these kinfolk tend to large families, the population pyramid is healthier than modern societies. It is still around third/third/third (for children, people of child bearing years which means 20-40 years old, and people over 40), with a slightly higher percentage in the younger cohorts (by 1-2%).
                        • This is a general guideline only, not a scientific number. So if it turns out the actual ratio is 80 to 1, or 120 to 1 in a game, I'm not going to fret it. But if the ratio seems to stat becoming 50 to 1 or 500 to 1, I may need to give some thought as to how I'm developing the chronicle.
                        • This only applies to homids and humans. Lupus and wolves have their own dynamics.
                        So why is this important to me? Well, it gives me several benefits (especially since I like coherent and consistent settings, and I like sandbox style play).

                        As an ST, I am enamored of the idea that there are many isolated, small kinfolk communities in rural areas. These communities are often like those found in "Folk Horror" movies and stories like Wicker Man or Harvest Home. Their separation from the Flock allows the Garou much greater social control so that Garou propaganda and Gaian values are not corrupted by the culture of the Flock. Kinfolk who live among the Flock, are in great risk of being lost. There is a much greater fear that the Veil will be pierced, so Garou and Gaian culture are less open, and children are exposed to a lot more dissenting views. I believe being Kinfolk, in many ways, is like being raised in a cult. The form these kinfolk communities can take are extremely varied. They include hippie communes of Children of Gaia kinfolk, technologically backward pseudo-Amish communities of Get of Fenris kinfolk, Silver Fang kinfolk pioneers who settled in some Montana River valley with other kinfolk families and maintain contact only with themselves, or anti-government survivalists starting their own "sovereign" community in the backwoods of Idaho where they live off the grid. There are kinfolk who don't fit this pattern (especially Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers, but certainly not limited to them), but they have a much greater tendency to "lose" members to the Flock. Besides, as an ST, I can have a lot more fun with that kind of community. And such isolated communities are more likely to be sources of high pure breed stock.

                        Even if I go the integrated kinfolk/Flock route, I know there must be so many dedicated kinfolk nearby. That comes in handy if I ever need to determine how many families comprise the kinfolk of local Garou tribe. In a sandbox style setting, this can come up.

                        And it can be useful in determining how much control or influence kinfolk have in that community, if it is split between kinfolk and humans. Are they a minority, struggling to protect the Veil and raise their children with "appropriate" values? Or are they in a constant power struggle to elect the county sheriff, local judges, and other political offices so they can hide up activities of the Garou? Or are they completely in control and see a few members of the Flock as a good way to expand their breeding stock, or to try to chase out so the community does not become endangered? So it can be a very good way to generate plot for the PCs, or to provide a chronicle backstory.

                        Having a ratio of homid Garou to kinfolk also allows me to know how many Garou that settlement can "support". If I want to include more such communities than the local sept/caern would normally have, I know that either the local sept has more members than average, or that the settlements "export" Garou to other septs. Either makes for a memorable setting. If I want to include significantly less such communities, then I know that the local sept has to "import" Garou either as permanent members or as a spot anruth packs visit. Regardless of which I chose, it is an easy to tool to customize the local area.

                        And if I have such communities, I can also determine what areas are more or less likely to have other things happen. I can have small, isolated areas be economically dying from lack of opportunity. Or that town may have much more active protests against outside agencies like a Star*Mart from opening nearby, or wealthy outsiders buying scenic property as vacation homes, or large businesses wanting to buy local businesses, or open up resource extractions. Or maybe that kinfolk community is a natural stopover for nomad Sabbat packs, or Camarilla travellers going to a new city because of its geography. That community then becomes a natural "kill zone" as "Lupines" slay any vampire who comes anywhere near that town. That is something I can use to design encounters.

                        So for me, this is not an academic question. It's a tool. And having significantly different numbers will alter things.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                          Garou and kinfolk tend to have a higher degree of children than the Flock around them does on average. While they are a dying people, they know this and are trying to make up for it.
                          I agree that garou tend to have more children on average than humans (in developed countries), but would argue, that this isn't so much a conscious decision as a species but a long standing custom.

                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                          Male Garou have significantly more children then female Garou, simply because the males can impregnate multiple women and can invest less time in child rearing. Female Garou can only have one child at a time, and there is significantly more "distraction" for them in regards to pregnancy and child rearing. So out of the Garou born from other Garou, there are more who have Garou fathers than Garou mothers.
                          I don't see male garou impregnating multiple women as socially acceptable in most tribes. There are still aspects to mating like love, envy, courting that homid garou and kin follow. Sure, we know that some editions allowed to use Rage as an instant aphrodisiac and the Shadow Lords have a reputation for forced intercourse for mating purposes still it doesn't match what I think in acceptable behaviour, in a general sense. Passionate Fianna are a whole other thing.

                          And, even with their wolf-side, I can't reconcile a male impregnating multiple females...

                          But, I agree that on average a male garou has more offspring than a female garou.

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                          • #14
                            Male Garou breeding with multiple kinfolk women is certainly an option. Whether it happens is based on a lot of factors. But I wouldn't dismiss it easily simply because we find it disquieting.

                            Lots of human cultures have had polygamy, and there isn't any reason why certain Garou septs wouldn't allow it as well. There are still many countries where it is legal and culturally permitted (primarily Muslim countries and some African countries) so there might not be any social problems within the Garou tribes there. Of course, this does not mean all or even most Garou might have more than one mate. Just like in these human cultures, only a few men at the top of the social hierarchy have multiple wives so this would likely only be limited to a relatively few high status Garou. Even in the United States where multiple marriages is outlawed, it still happens in outlawed Mormon sects. And we see the same thing in many strange cults among the ringleader. Historically, it was allowed in certain Native American cultures and other cultures. So even though it is rare now, it's entirely possible that it may be a legacy for some Garou tribes, even if only at a local level. And it's even possible that outside these human culture areas, that it could be an accepted custom among select septs for variety of reasons. If a caern has the totem of Cuckoo bird, what do you think would be permitted there?

                            There is already a strong sense that many Garou parents are absentee parents. Issues like Rage and the need to fight the Wyrm mitigate against a Garou parent having a real job and raising their own kids. Instead, they get fostered with kinfolks who can act like real parents and spend time and money on them. I imagine most of them are with their natural kinfolk mothers. Who are the kinfolk "fathers" in these families is something we tend to shy away from, but it has to happen. So if it happens with one mother, it can certainly happen with more than one. It's not necessary that a Garou who is considered a mate by their culture necessarily means they are legally married in any human sense. Alternate relationships have to be part of it. Otherwise, we are condemning a lot of kinfolk women mated to Garou to a life of poverty and welfare. That doesn't seem to be the case though. So we have to be open that if it can happen for one mother, then some Garou might have multiple cases.

                            In situations like that, there might still be certain rules to follow. For example, among certain Silver Fangs, a male Silver Fang might be permitted to breed with multiple women - but only the wives of his male brothers or other close relatives. After all, they need to keep that Pure Breed up and restrict mating to a select social circle. Outside of that, it would be forbidden. This may not be the default status for the entire tribe, but it certainly could be for some parts of it. Likewise, a Children of Gaia in a "free love" type kinfolk commune, could mate with multiple women since it is all consensual, and the entire commune is supposed to be responsible for raising the child (in theory). Perhaps some local tribes operate orphanages for the purpose of taking in all these babies from unwed kinfolk mothers, and then make them available for adoption to good kinfolk families (or even families among the Flock).

                            And there is also the issue of non-paternity. How much non-paternity occurs is open to debate. I've seen figures from 2% to 30%. But it seems the general consensus is that in the population as a whole, it is around 2-3%. But if a husband thinks their wife has been cheating on them, the figure is somewhere around 30%. If the husband doesn't have a reason to think that, it may be less than 1%. I think it is entirely possible that there is a larger number of kinfolk women who cheat on their kinfolk husbands or boyfriends with a Garou "mate" than women in real life. It's entirely likely this has to be kept secret, but also likely that there is a culture of silence about this among the Garou. As long as the Garou in question isn't stupid and keeps it on the down low, I imagine most Garou wouldn't care.

                            And of course there is the issue of single mothers and welfare. I imagine most tribes and Garou would be against this as a strategy. But I also have a hard time thinking this would be a concern among the Bone Gnawers.

                            So while I don't believe this would be the matter with the average male Garou, I can see that this is probably more acceptable than it would be in your standard Western culture (even for Garou based in those cultures). Whether it happens would be dependent on a lot of things - some tribes would be very much against it while others would not care so much. And the relative status and "genetic attractiveness" of the Garou would be important. And the manner in which these kinds of relationships are permitted, tolerated, or regulated at the local level come into play.

                            So there might very well be a significant number of Garou (and kinfolk) who have the same father, but different mothers. I wouldn't dare put a % figure on it. But it is certainly something that happens to some degree. It can be something completely ignored in most chronicles, but it may be something a PC might find it interesting to put in their background, or an ST might find some version of it to be an interesting element of their chronicle setting.

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                            • #15
                              All true. Just wanted to point out, that there isn't a default acceptance of garou males spreading their seed - local traditions, exceptions for garou of high standing, strange totem choices, passionate Fianna, Omens of a fateful offspring, ordered intercourse for political or pure breed reasons, children of gaia free love communities and all that notwithstanding.

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