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  • Garou and xenophobia

    Why do Garou still hate vampires in W20, and how their relationships gona work V/W5?
    I mean I WANT to like WtA but all their racism toward vampires always made me sick (also we all knew which game line is more popular so VtM-fans can easily be mad at WtA and for a good reasons). This trope is pretty irritating and it's not a greater pleasure to play a supernatural equivalent of Aryan Brotherhood.
    Last edited by Lashet; 09-10-2019, 03:36 AM.

  • #2
    Because vampires are inherently damaging to the Earth and are parasitic predators using humans and spreading a very real corruption around. This is no racism issue, vampires legit DO harm to the people around them and accidentally (or not in some VERY fringe cases) spread the taint of the Wyrm. Garou are creatures of Life and vampires, being undead, are an anti.thesisto that.

    Most garou don't even see the vampires as people, just another version of a spirit possessed human.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
      Because vampires are inherently damaging to the Earth and are parasitic predators using humans and spreading a very real corruption around. This is no racism issue, vampires legit DO harm to the people around them and accidentally (or not in some VERY fringe cases) spread the taint of the Wyrm. Garou are creatures of Life and vampires, being undead, are an anti.thesisto that.

      Most garou don't even see the vampires as people, just another version of a spirit possessed human.
      Pff. Average human made more damage than average vampire - vamp doesn't need to use plastic that much.
      Also, Forsakens doesn't hate Requem vampires, until those guys do something harmful.

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      • #4
        1) Garou hate vampires in W20 because W20 is a compilation edition and wasn't written to change the setting in such an impactful way. Yes the trope is stale, but so are plenty in the WoD. The CofD exists if you want something that doesn't set this stuff in stone.

        2) We have no idea how things are going to be in 5e.

        3) The Garou hatred of vampires is generally far more a binary thing in VtM than WtA. Sure in WtA the Garou don't like vampires, but they're a fairly low level concern that are more annoying than active targets of hatred. Garou will, after all, team up with vampire temporarily if it's useful to take out something that's a more important target. Even VtM goes there sometimes too.

        4) The real big "hatreds" are much more specific. The Shadow Lords hate the Tzimisce (is that... really so bad?), the Silent Striders hate the Followers of Set (rather justifiably), etc.

        5) Frankly, the idea that hating bloodsucking monsters that corrupt people is the same as being a neo-Nazi is... pretty insulting to me as something that real neo-Nazis would love to harm. Vampires aren't some innocent minority being persecuted because some racist asshole thinks they're scum just for being different. Vampires are monsters. The predate on humans. The subvert free will to force people to do things without their consent. They're always one bad moment from murdering people. The Garou might not actually be that much better, but the games firmly put this in "corrupt cops vs. gang members" territory, not neo-Nazis vs.... whatever you think vampires are in this equation.

        6) People play Sabbat games... so... yeah. Some people do like playing the bad guys.

        7) The Garou are monsters too. They're flawed beings. That's kinda the point.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Lashet View Post

          Pff. Average human made more damage than average vampire - vamp doesn't need to use plastic that much.
          Also, Forsakens doesn't hate Requem vampires, until those guys do something harmful.
          Because it is a whole other cosmology in nWoD, compared to oWoD. As for human polluting more, yeah it is a theme in WtA. Vampires though are akin to ticks on humanity that spread disease and make things worse in general.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            1


            5) Frankly, the idea that hating bloodsucking monsters that corrupt people is the same as being a neo-Nazi is... pretty insulting to me as something that real neo-Nazis would love to harm. Vampires aren't some innocent minority being persecuted because some racist asshole thinks they're scum just for being different. Vampires are monsters. The predate on humans. The subvert free will to force people to do things without their consent. They're always one bad moment from murdering people. The Garou might not actually be that much better, but the games firmly put this in "corrupt cops vs. gang members" territory, not neo-Nazis vs.... whatever you think vampires are in this equation.

            6) People play Sabbat games... so... yeah. Some people do like playing the bad guys.

            7) The Garou are monsters too. They're flawed beings. That's kinda the point.

            Mages and channellings don't hate vamps that much. Neither werewolves hate them that much. It still can be done in more neutral manner.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Lashet View Post
              Mages and channellings don't hate vamps that much. Neither werewolves hate them that much. It still can be done in more neutral manner.
              Werewolves are anything but neutral.
              Werewolves, on average, are best described as 'religious fanatics'. Their entire breeding, upbringing and very society revolves around being part of a survival-of-the-fittest warrior culture in the name of their metaphysical creator, and their mission is to fight anything that goes against their percieved order of How The World Should Be. They are probably the most opinionated and set-in-stone-mindset playable faction in the WoD. They are the playable faction where The Cause is more important than the individual, and not because of powerplay politics but as *the* raison d'etre. They're the faction that, while trying to avoid it, take hefty collateral damage as a thing that happens sometimes in the line of their duty, or when trying to plug a violation of the Veil. They have a tribe that literally *hates humans*.

              This all goes so far that they even started several wars on the *other literal children of their goddess* and even exterminated some completely.

              And that's just their human side.

              *Now* you add pure, bridling, supernatural Rage and predatory mindset to that, a force that at times makes them TEAR UP their most loved companions. And they can't even *help it*.

              And *then* you add Vampires that supernaturally reek of the very thing they are raised to destroy, no matter how the vampires in question behave.
              Yeah. Sorry, but it makes sense for them to have a burning hate-on for the vampires, no matter what angle you look at it from.
              Last edited by Ambrosia; 09-10-2019, 06:58 AM.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                Werewolves are anything but neutral.
                Werewolves, on average, are best described as 'religious fanatics'. Their entire breeding, upbringing and very society revolves around being part of a survival-of-the-fittest warrior culture in the name of their metaphysical creator, and their mission is to fight anything that goes against their percieved order of How The World Should Be. They are probably the most opinionated and set-in-stone-mindset playable faction in the WoD. They are the playable faction where The Cause is more important than the individual. They're the faction that, while trying to avoid it, take hefty collateral damage as a thing that happens sometimes in the line of their duty, or when trying to plug a violation of the Veil.

                And that's just their human side.

                *Now* you add pure, bridling, supernatural Rage and predatory mindset to that, a force that at times makes them TEAR UP their most loved companions. And they can't even *help it*.

                And *then* you add Vampires that supernaturally reek of the very thing they are raised to destroy, no matter how the vampires in question behave.
                Yeah. Sorry, but it makes sense for them to have a burning hate-on for the vampires, no matter what angle you look at it from.
                Well you just described a greatest loosers in the world(looking at the state of the setting even in W20 they actually are). Animals must know their place

                Anyway it's made funs of more popular gameline a haters of WtA. It sucks.
                Last edited by Lashet; 09-10-2019, 06:53 AM.

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                • #9
                  Not sure if I agree on the "possessed human" part being something that MOST garou believe , but everything else is true.

                  Garou are racist, no question there, but that is towards other fera, and to some degree toward other tribes, but this was toned down in revised and W20.

                  That said, werewolves are seen as mindless brutes and challenges an fight-oriented vampire can overcome, in the vampire setting. Well, at least since WtA is out and Gangrels can't just learn werewolf rites anymore, like in 1st Edition. That said, werewolves are for the most past not an issue in a vampire game and likewise, vampires are the least of the problems a garou encounters when fighting the wyrm.

                  I mean, they sure are minions of the Wyrm, unwillingly but in the essence of their being, but they tend to hide well and cause usually less (short-time) damage than fomori or banes or wyrm cultists or what ever else. So, if a sept has to choose which leads to follow, packs usually won't go the vampire route - if other leads are available.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    2) We have no idea how things are going to be in 5e.
                    Except for the werewolf entry in V5, which doesn't indicate any changes in this regard.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                      Not sure if I agree on the "possessed human" part being something that MOST garou believe , but everything else is true.

                      Garou are racist, no question there, but that is towards other fera, and to some degree toward other tribes, but this was toned down in revised and W20.

                      That said, werewolves are seen as mindless brutes and challenges an fight-oriented vampire can overcome, in the vampire setting. Well, at least since WtA is out and Gangrels can't just learn werewolf rites anymore, like in 1st Edition. That said, werewolves are for the most past not an issue in a vampire game and likewise, vampires are the least of the problems a garou encounters when fighting the wyrm.

                      I mean, they sure are minions of the Wyrm, unwillingly but in the essence of their being, but they tend to hide well and cause usually less (short-time) damage than fomori or banes or wyrm cultists or what ever else. So, if a sept has to choose which leads to follow, packs usually won't go the vampire route - if other leads are available.
                      And it sucks. I mean VtM is more popular and it's fandom can justifiedly call Carol a bigots and mindless fanatics

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                        And it sucks. I mean VtM is more popular and it's fandom can justifiedly call Carol a bigots and mindless fanatics
                        So, because people like to play Vampire should mean garou should like vampire?
                        No! Garou don't even like to play 'Revenant: The Ravishing' by Black dog. Why? Because it sucks!

                        I mean, you go around an try to steal peoples blood, all the while watching your back for not getting stabbed in one intrigue or the other. It is all about betrayal and besting someone else and the loss of humanity. That's right. Loss of humanity is what the game was all about before they introduced other ways of unlife to bend the rules...

                        So, of all the people, who play VtM, who really goes into the themes of the game that deep?
                        How many of them have even tried to play WtA, CtD, HtR - and seen if they would like it better?

                        I'm not arguing that VtM is the most popular. It is. It probably wouldn't be if people would give other games a chance.
                        Most Vampire LARPers I know played Werewolf LARP once and never looked back. Because it is fun, comradery-based and you can play it in the sun.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                          So, because people like to play Vampire should mean garou should like vampire?
                          No! Garou don't even like to play 'Revenant: The Ravishing' by Black dog. Why? Because it sucks!
                          At least you don't make the biggest fandom of WoD your enemies who will call you characters are facsists and fanatics. Garou would not lose anything without hatred to vampires.
                          Last edited by Lashet; 09-10-2019, 08:25 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                            At least you don't make the biggest fandom of WoD your enemies who will call you characters are facsists and fanatics. Garou would not lose anything without hatred to vampires.
                            Except their credibility.

                            I mean, what would be the reason to not declare vampires enemies of Gaia?

                            They are, by their own rulebooks admission, monsters.

                            EDIT:
                            However, they WtA wouldn't loose anything, if VtM wasn't part of the WoD.
                            MtA and CtD work so much better with WtA. Even WtO does.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                              At least you don't make the biggest fandom of WoD your enemies who will call you characters are facsists and fanatics.
                              The moment people start confusing the fandom with the characters themselves, and start taking such things personally, the problem isn't the game theme.

                              I play a lot of online WoD RPG games. MUSHes and the like. The players there can play whatever they want - vampires, mages, werewolves, changelings, kin, acolytes, Changing Breeds, Mortals, Sorcerors etc.

                              The players don't start disliking each other just because their characters dislike each other. It's roleplaying. Collaborative storytelling. They don't log on to play "Vampire" or "Mage", they log on to play "World of Darkness", where inherent tensions and conflicts between certain groups are just part of the game. And it works fine.


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