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  • #46
    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
    Well that's how it was with me - VtM-fans demostrated that Garou (who I adored those times) act fascistic toward vampires and in fact, just a bunch of hypocrite, mindless bloodthristy barbarians.
    As for me, I was a hater of WtA for years couse of disappoitment. Then I find Forsakens. Right now I'm mostly indifferent to oWoD and WtA. But... i still think that all out war with vampires was a HUGE mistake.
    Actually they would be hypocrites if they wheel and dealed with Vampires. It goes against their entire culture and religion. Children of Gaia, and a Golcondites could find a place harmonious to nature, but Garou wouldn't be able to tell they are nobler and penitent rather than just vampires pretending to be saints.

    Take note in the Middle Kingdom the Hengeyokai tolerate the Wan Kuei. They still have bloody turf wars and potential centipede spawn, but they acknowledge they have the potential to not taint the whole land because they have a long history close together. They hate each other, but they know they can make deals.

    The west has a much bloodier history with Vampires. Like you think the Silent Striders, who lost their Homeland on Earth and in the Afterlife, and had their ancestors wiped out from the spirit world, and who suffered a curse forbidding them from finding a home or settle rather than wander, are forever going to trust vampires and think they are okay to deal with.

    Vampires literally drink blood and hypnotise people into worshipping them, and they are less worrisome ones, the bad ones banish your souls to the four winds and crush your home for millennia.


    It is a time for great deeds!

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Lashet View Post

      That'sshould be the problem with thisand only this corpse. Also lot of normal Carol treat kinfolk as a walking incubators or seers. Well why not.
      Except they have had this same problem with thousands of these "individual corpses" for millennia. There is a pattern and monstrous history. The Silver Records has Stories about Voivode Tzimisce who turn into Dragons (Wyrms) that breath Balefire, and live in Cathedrals of flesh.

      Vampires literally are pulling the puppets strings of influential individuals and politicians and this is a valued characteristic in their society. If they could they would control the governments of the world but its too much for them to control. Your arguments make no sense. Garou try to stop predators from preying on humans because that feeds banes. Yes they also kill humans. But how is a vampire, who is a corpse addicted to blood, that needs blood to survive, and who possess a demonic beast driving their passions and desires, supposed to be something you desire to have in your territory? Come on man. You know it doesn't make sense. Either the Garou act more like vampires and mind control and prey on humanity for personal gain, or vampires are muzzled and burdened with laws that forbid them from their worst excesses.


      It is a time for great deeds!

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

        Actually they would be hypocrites if they wheel and dealed with Vampires. It goes against their entire culture and religion. Children of Gaia, and a Golcondites could find a place harmonious to nature, but Garou wouldn't be able to tell they are nobler and penitent rather than just vampires pretending to be saints.

        Take note in the Middle Kingdom the Hengeyokai tolerate the Wan Kuei. They still have bloody turf wars and potential centipede spawn, but they acknowledge they have the potential to not taint the whole land because they have a long history close together. They hate each other, but they know they can make deals.

        The west has a much bloodier history with Vampires. Like you think the Silent Striders, who lost their Homeland on Earth and in the Afterlife, and had their ancestors wiped out from the spirit world, and who suffered a curse forbidding them from finding a home or settle rather than wander, are forever going to trust vampires and think they are okay to deal with.

        Vampires literally drink blood and hypnotise people into worshipping them, and they are less worrisome ones, the bad ones banish your souls to the four winds and crush your home for millennia.
        PFF it isn't gonna bethe first time when Garou were hypocrite.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Lashet View Post

          PFF it isn't gonna bethe first time when Garou were hypocrite.
          What you don't understand is that is part of the game, Garou are Hypocrites, the Fera are Hypocrites that call out the Garou for being hypocrites while ignoring their own flaws. Vampires are hypocrites. These aren't bugs but features of the games. But Garou aspires to be more than their failings but they fall to the tragedy of their Rage while keeping the world from Ending.

          At this point you are just thrashing and ignoring what people here are saying while they are addressing your points.


          It is a time for great deeds!

          Comment


          • #50
            Lashet

            OK, so, serious question:

            Can you please phrase what you'd like from this thread?

            Can you please do this without:

            A) Making broad generalizations about people (aka fans).

            B) Using the word "fascist" because you've been using it in an incredibly careless way that has no respect for the damage real world fascists have done to real world people.

            C) Failing to express what you'd like in terms of having a conversation about this topic.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Lashet View Post
              Why do Garou still hate vampires in W20, and how their relationships gona work V/W5?
              I mean I WANT to like WtA but all their racism toward vampires always made me sick (also we all knew which game line is more popular so VtM-fans can easily be mad at WtA and for a good reasons). This trope is pretty irritating and it's not a greater pleasure to play a supernatural equivalent of Aryan Brotherhood.

              Everyone hates Vampires. Even other Vampires. The entrity of Vampire society is built around coming up with elaborate ways to deal with people you hate. Next we have the Masquerade you've probably bought into the "humans couldn't possibly understand... " bullshit.. and it is bullshit the Masquerade or "Silence of the blood" exists for vampires to more readily hunt people. That is their most basic moral principle, the thing their entire society is built around "DON'T GET CAUGHT"

              Its not some sort of wierd trope where Vampires and werewolf hate each other for no reason, Kindred are pretty much fucked up damned individuals... and it shows. That's why their whole game is about holding onto some semblence of morality in the face of their monsterous condition. Its like complaining that someone who has issue with Pedophiles is "a bigot"

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Lashet View Post

                Pff. Average human made more damage than average vampire - vamp doesn't need to use plastic that much.
                Also, Forsakens doesn't hate Requem vampires, until those guys do something harmful.
                I want to address this point, and the answer is actually, no, most vampires wield a lot of influence and, like the rich, do way more damage to the world than vampires do just on the basis of typically-greater wealth and power than the average person. This doesn't even get into how it takes something like ten humans to sustain one vampire, or how vampires tend to sustain injustices like economic disparity or racism so that they have a large supply of people upon which to prey. Also, when vampires screw up their Masquerade, it threatens the Veil by proximity, which may be a self-serving point, but when the Sabbat come to town, they're deserving of little more than a show of friendship with fire elementals and/or sun-spirits.

                Speaking of which, if you don't like what the Garou think about Kindred, you'll probably really hate the Corax and Mokole.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Lashet View Post

                  Mages and channellings don't hate vamps that much.
                  The Order of Hermes and the Celestial Chorus beg to differ

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Lian View Post


                    Everyone hates Vampires. Even other Vampires. The entrity of Vampire society is built around coming up with elaborate ways to deal with people you hate. Next we have the Masquerade you've probably bought into the "humans couldn't possibly understand... " bullshit.. and it is bullshit the Masquerade or "Silence of the blood" exists for vampires to more readily hunt people. That is their most basic moral principle, the thing their entire society is built around "DON'T GET CAUGHT"

                    Its not some sort of wierd trope where Vampires and werewolf hate each other for no reason, Kindred are pretty much fucked up damned individuals... and it shows. That's why their whole game is about holding onto some semblence of morality in the face of their monsterous condition. Its like complaining that someone who has issue with Pedophiles is "a bigot"
                    They could hate them without constant attempt to kill them.(at lest not make this default)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      Lashet

                      OK, so, serious question:

                      Can you please phrase what you'd like from this thread?

                      Can you please do this without:

                      A) Making broad generalizations about people (aka fans).

                      B) Using the word "fascist" because you've been using it in an incredibly careless way that has no respect for the damage real world fascists have done to real world people.

                      C) Failing to express what you'd like in terms of having a conversation about this topic.
                      OK. I can use word "bully")) You know, that's how vampo-funs usually refferd Garou. Idk did you guys know about Beast the Primodal controversy but usually I saw the similar logic the author of BtP used - heroes are hypocrite bullies who attack weakling untill they meet someone who can fight back (like Mirta or Yaga).
                      As for for what I'd like from the thread - information. I got one.
                      Last edited by Lashet; 09-11-2019, 01:38 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                        They could hate them without constant attempt to kill them.(at lest not make this default)
                        No they can't. the Default position of things is to try and kill vampires. The majority of Vampires are killed amazingly by... other vampires. Vampires litterally have a position for checking a city for new vampires AND if they found them not able to say the right words kill them. This is he same default position with Garou. "Don't touch our shit or we will kill you".

                        Same with everything else, Vampires know "other things are scary" and reasonably hide from them.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post

                          No they can't. the Default position of things is to try and kill vampires. The majority of Vampires are killed amazingly by... other vampires. Vampires litterally have a position for checking a city for new vampires AND if they found them not able to say the right words kill them. This is he same default position with Garou. "Don't touch our shit or we will kill you".
                          Garou kill vampires whenever they can. OIf their position would be like " Don't touch us and go away" I would would be the first who'd approved them.
                          Last edited by Lashet; 09-11-2019, 02:09 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Lian View Post


                            Its like complaining that someone who has issue with Pedophiles is "a bigot"
                            Btw using this metaphor... Well Garou is not into moral position for hatred there. It's kinda 'serial regular rapist hate pedophiles' for me.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Hello,

                              This escalated pretty quickly.

                              About the co-existence: it should be mentioned, that high Humanity vampires doesn't reek from the Wyrm. Such Kindred must carve an existence where active harmful actions are avoided (or they loss their Humanity fast).
                              Such individuals would not beep on the Garous' radar. They would be able to build connections & maybe alliances.Of course, most player wouldn’t play them. They are not very action friendly.

                              But if a player plays the “Prince of the Night”, they can be f*cked.

                              By the way, there are multiple occasion, when vamps. and Garou worked together (but mostly in 1st & second edition).
                              Bone Gnawers & Nosferatu shared information; Shadow Lord infiltrated the Kindred society; Fianna & Torreador did art-stuff together. There are even Gangrel vikingaars in dark ages, who had connections with the Get. BSD connection to Sabbat & Giovanni can also be mentioned.
                              Of course they always were open for back-stabbing.

                              There were city wide non-aggression agreements (Vancouver), or Sept based (New York’s Sabbat did not shed blood in the Sept of the Green).

                              About players:
                              The players play exceptional characters and not the average. They can have other perspective, than the general one and could build (uneasy) bridges between the two splats.
                              Of course the Garou have a much sticker code of operation than the Kindred and hot Rage triggers.

                              Other topic:
                              There are clear hostilities between other splats and vamps. Technocracy used HIT MARKS to drag vampires into daylight. Order of Hermes killed Tremere, Hunters hunted, Demons stole Herds and killed “Osirises”, Mummy destroyed Settita temples, etc.
                              AND VAMPIRES DESTROYED EACH-OTHER SOUL FOR FUN AND PROFIT, MAN!


                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                                They could hate them without constant attempt to kill them.(at lest not make this default)

                                I am sorry but why should they not?


                                Best case scenario a vampire is a creature that feed on the innocent people with something that really look like rape;average secnario they are serial murderers, and sometimes they are eldritch evil of untold depravity.
                                Are we talking of the race that produced Yorak, Augustus Giovanni, Moncada, Vykos and so on, aren't we?




                                1) Vampires are one of the principal causes of pollution, since the Pentex always had among its leaders Enzo Giovanni and Harold Zettler, and as a whole the vampiric race always pushed for wild urbanization, (for the same reason we pushed for intensive farming).

                                2) Most of the wars that plagued human kind were caused by vampires (The Punic Wars and the Peloponnesian war were a showdown between Ventrue and Brujah; the Inca and the Aztecs have been destroyed just to fuel the feud between Menele and Helena; the British Civil war was a reckoning between Mithras and the Toreador; the Reconquista in Spain was an internal feud between the Lasombra, and so on).

                                3) Vampires and their feuds cause oftne financial crisis and economic disruption (The Camarilla hits the economy of every city held by the Sabbat, like Detroit. Vitel encouraged the rise of poverty and violent crimes in Washington to have better cover for the Masquerade. Lodin destroyed the city of Gary just to destroy the powerbase of Modius; the Greece financial crisis was caused by the Giovanni; the 2008 financial crisis was worsened by a financial attack of the anarchs against the elders of the Camarilla)

                                4) There is an entire sect (the sabbat) which is a mass of mass murders and serial killers who would enslave humanity and use us as cattle. Among them there is a Clan made of alien torturers and a Clan made of creature tied to an infernal dimension called the Abyss.

                                5) The Giovanni are plotting the end of the world, they kill, spread death and famine, and harass souls with the aim of taking over the world after the Apocalypse they are to unleash

                                6) The Setites believe that they have the mandatory mission to spread corruption, to empower their dark blood god (who, among the other things cursed an entire werewolf family, but let bygones be bygones!).

                                7) The Assamites are currently led by a Demon-Vampire who believes that every other vampire should be killed, unless they convert to Haqim

                                8) The Ventrue are all that is wrong with capitalism and powers and have supported every organization that ruled upon the weak and exploited the working class.

                                9) The Tremere are an infernal sect of barabbi who tried to corrupt the whole Order of Hermes.

                                10) I'll just say "baali"

                                11) The most ancients of the vampiric race are lovecraftian monsters. Methuselah with a humanity trait above 5 are few indeed. Most 4th gen methuselah are eldritch abomination that haunts humanity. Yorak crafted an empire of flesh, killing tens of thousands of innocent peole in the process; Japhet and Lazarus are working toward the Apocalypse, just as Augustus Giovanni is doing with the Endless Night; Helena is a dangerous predator that kills other vampires to feed and caused the fall of the amerindian empires; Lohui is a servant of darkness and answer to the Lasombra Antediluvians, and she is trying to blot out the sun; Baba Yaga was a primordial entity that dwelled with demons; Ur-Shulgi is a vampire-demon hybrid devoid of any trace of humanity, and so on and so on and so on.

                                12) Every single vampire is a pawn in the hand of the Antediluvians. Savage blood gods that will ultimately destroy the world. Just the awakening of Ravnos caused millions of deaths.




                                So, let's play a game: assume I'm Edgar Broken-Jaw, of the Shadow Lords tribe.

                                Explain me why a werewolf should not adopt the policy "shoot first ask later" with a vampire.

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