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  • #61
    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
    You know, that's how vampo-funs usually refferd Garou.
    OK, so strike out on ask part A.

    Idk did you guys know about Beast the Primodal controversy....
    Exceedingly. Feel free to look for my contributions to the BtP threads here.

    ...but usually I saw the similar logic the author of BtP used - heroes are hypocrite bullies who attack weakling untill they meet someone who can fight back (like Mirta or Yaga).
    OK, clearly you aren't as familiar with Beast.

    Beast's Heroes and the Garou do share a few things in common.

    One of which is? They aren't just bullies who attack weaklings for no good reason. They are fighting things that are actually monsters, even if some of them view things far too black and white.

    What separates Heroes from the Garou, is that Heroes are ultimately motivated by the need to shore up their lack of a sense of self (denoted by dangerous Heroes having low Integrity) by claiming glory via killing monsters; even if they do so in rather inglorious fashion. The Garou, on the other hand, can certainly be motivated by being glory hounds, but they're not defined by it. As noted, they're religious zealots fighting a Crusade against other monsters. Their primary motivation is to fulfill what they see is their divine purpose in the universe.

    BtP purposefully included a variety of Heroes, some of which are brutish and violent, and others that are far more sympathetic. The book repeatedly discusses the fact that Heroes have a point, but their motivations and methods are what's flawed rather than the idea that Beasts are monsters that need to be fought. Even if the possible ancient times where Heroes were Sages, conflict with the Begotten was essential, but Sages fought Beasts and used that to make their communities stronger, where Heroes kill Beasts for their one self-empowerment.

    As for for what I'd like from the thread - information. I got one.
    And a strike out for ask part C too.

    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
    Garou kill vampires whenever they can.
    Citation please. We've provided plenty of examples of this not being the case.

    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
    Btw using this metaphor... Well Garou is not into moral position for hatred there. It's kinda 'serial regular rapist hate pedophiles' for me.
    No. The metaphor doesn't have this issue.

    Whether or not the Garou have the moral high ground is irrelevant to whether or not it's moral to hate VtM's vampires for being what they are.

    Abraham Lincoln was openly racist... and a strident abolitionist. The fact that he believed black people were an inherently inferior race might detract from him as a person no matter how much we tend to white wash history, but it doesn't detract from the righteousness of the cause for abolition, nor does it excuse the pro-slavery elements just because their enemies weren't perfect people.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Lashet View Post
      Vampires could be their own phenomena, with no connection to Wyrm.
      It isn't that the Wyrm made Vampires, or has any connection to them. There is a foundation for that in the books but it isn't the prominent information WtA players would use to declare vampires an enemy faction.

      They literally suck the life out of people.
      They are un-dead.

      But others have explained that already...

      Originally posted by Lashet View Post
      To Heavy Arms. With all this is true, only Garou has "hunt and kill them whenever you can".Others can disgust, hate or certainly distrust them but not the whole splat hate all of the whole splat.
      Maybe you misread Heavy Arms, but Keui-jin and HUNTERs will kill western vampires, just like garou would. Not with the same method, but with the same enthusiasm.

      Originally posted by Lashet View Post
      I did. All out hatred is the only WtA feature. Others just don't like them.
      Speaking of vampire kiss... Pfaff. Garou literally eat people sometimes. So? Let people make some fun
      Well, if you didn't read about rage over the destruction of the world, inter-pack companionship, the joy of being alive, the thrill of the hunt, love and lust, the feeling of being part of something bigger, having a legacy, leaving a legacy - well, then you read the wrong book.

      Also, garou kill people, sometimes per bite, but not on a regular bases to survive - if one of them would and the other found out, he/she would be just as dead as a vampire (except for some 1st edition short story where eating people got a bone gnawer ostracised but not killed - nah, 1st edition).



      Originally posted by Lashet View Post
      WHAT would it take from WtA? Inner logic? oWoD never have one. On the other hand - VtM-fans would not look down on your very favorite splat as on the fascists and until your became the splat's worst hater (that's my case).
      Who cares if vampire players look down on WtA?
      First of all, many VtM Players also play WtA and other WoD games, and (for heaven's sake) 4th Edition D&D like the White Wolf authors.
      And 2nd, nobody should be forced to like WtA. People probably should try it a couple of times, possibly with different STs to get an understanding, what it is about before the judge the game/setting.

      Originally posted by Lashet View Post
      Garou failed complitely in being heroes.
      You know the definition of a hero?
      It is someone who is responsible for other people's deaths.
      Look it up.


      That quoted, sure. The garou, as a species could have done a better job. They also could have done a worst job. as the Setting dictates, Gaia is still around and still dying. And sure, they are hypocrites, one can't be a fanatic without being a hypocrite for long. But that is part of the game as well. Just like vampire defend their drinking of blood and what else they do as necessary for their survival and label it "not so bad" while slowly declining in their humanity the garou too, are prone to further the Wyrm occasionally. One simply can't kill fomori woh happen to be family father without furthering grief and frustration.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Lashet View Post
        That's should be the problem with thisand only this corpse. Also lot of normal Carol treat kinfolk as a walking incubators or seers. Well why not?
        And it is this kind of wording that gets me angry. For it is "Some Garou treat kinfolk as walking incubators" not 'a lot', not most, not all.

        Read the whole "Unsung Hereos" supplement, not just the tragic example NPCs in the back. They are noteworthy kinfolk, because of the tragedy they endured, not baseline templates.

        That said, I think what VtM player often dislike is the fact that most vampires can't soak agg damage and therefore are inferior in a physical battle. That, paired with the fact that vampire ST use Lupines (not necessarily garou) as plot elements to kill PCs (in LARP games) or make the retreat can garner some ill will towards werewolf as a game line.

        Also, as many have pointed out, while garou would make an effort to kill a vampire, if they were on his trail and the Veil permitted, sure. But they (or probably most of them) would also abandon this effort, if they came across a fomori, bane or other wyrm minion, that is core to their game line.

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        • #64
          [SIZE=13px]
          Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


          I am sorry but why should they not?

          My problem is mostly meta-gameous: how the splats looks like from gamers pov IRL.
          Your average Garou would likely kill any vampire without second thoughts - that's their position by default, anything also is exception.
          Now, let's see,
          Edgar Broken-Jaw, of the Shadow Lords tribe.



          Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
          Enzo Giovanni and Harold Zettler
          The Setites believe that they have the mandatory mission to spread corruption, to empower their dark blood god (who, among the other things cursed an entire werewolf family, but let bygones be bygones!).

          I'll just say "baali"

          Yorak, Augustus Giovanni, Moncada, Vykos
          There is an entire sect (the sabbat) which is a mass of mass murders and serial killers who would enslave humanity and use us as cattle. Among them there is a Clan made of alien torturers and a Clan made of creature tied to an infernal dimension called the Abyss.

          The Giovanni are plotting the end of the world, they kill, spread death and famine, and harass souls with the aim of taking over the world after the Apocalypse they are to unleash
          Fight them. These exactly bad guys (though Mitra and Yaga already demonstrated that you're far from greate when it comes to big guns of vampires).



          Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

          Vampires and their feuds cause oftne financial crisis and economic disruption (The Camarilla hits the economy of every city held by the Sabbat, like Detroit. Vitel encouraged the rise of poverty and violent crimes in Washington to have better cover for the Masquerade. Lodin destroyed the city of Gary just to destroy the powerbase of Modius; the Greece financial crisis was caused by the Giovanni; the 2008 financial crisis was worsened by a financial attack of the anarchs against the elders of the Camarilla)

          At very least hulf of you own kind want to destroy human civilization as a whole and return people into caves.



          Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
          Most of the wars that plagued human kind were caused by vampires (The Punic Wars and the Peloponnesian war were a showdown between Ventrue and Brujah; the Inca and the Aztecs have been destroyed just to fuel the feud between Menele and Helena; the British Civil war was a reckoning between Mithras and the Toreador; the Reconquista in Spain was an internal feud between the Lasombra, and so on).
          Who said War of Tears? And genocide of Pure Tribes' kinfolks? Or Imperium? Or War of Rage when you killed not just some monkeys but your own folk (Fera)?


          Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
          The Tremere are an infernal sect of barabbi who tried to corrupt the whole Order of Hermes.
          That's their and mages business.




          Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
          The Ventrue are all that is wrong with capitalism and powers and have supported every organization that ruled upon the weak and exploited the working class.
          How Ironical to listen this from a representative of the Tribe of power-hungry sneaky traitors. These guys just live your dream



          Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


          You guys are not slightly better than - average - camarilla vampire. When a Garou kills a vampire with Humanity 7 - who most probably hurt well less people than this garou himself - that's just plain wrong.

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          • #65
            Okay let’s try this, why should the Garou accept Ampires at the expense of the humans they prey upon?

            And why should Vampires accept infernalists and Fomori? Vampires do kill infernal beings on sight atfter all.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
              Okay let’s try this, why should the Garou accept Ampires at the expense of the humans they prey upon?

              And why should Vampires accept infernalists and Fomori? Vampires do kill infernal beings on sight atfter all.
              Metagame: couse VtM is a separate splat (the main one for oWoD) while Fomori and Infernalists are antagonists.
              Inuniverse: Werewolves should actually hunt those vampires who are on the way. But not adequate and normal Anarchy and Camarillian.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                You guys are not slightly better than - average - camarilla vampire. When a Garou kills a vampire with Humanity 7 - who most probably hurt well less people than this garou himself - that's just plain wrong.
                Something being wrong in the World Of Darkness?
                I am shocked.
                Shocked, I tell you.


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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                  My problem is mostly meta-gameous: how the splats looks like from gamers pov IRL.
                  You've yet to establish a single reason any of us should take your impression of what "gamers pov IRL" is like, is at all a meaningful representation of how people think about WtA.

                  I've been an active part of this fandom for around 25 years now.

                  I've seen lots of in-fighting between fans of different splats (or more likely, people that dislike specific splats fighting with people that do rather than actually arguing over why to like one splat over the other).

                  Has the hard-coded "everyone hates everyone else" aspect of the WoD (because it is in fact far more expansive than vampires vs. werewolves) cropped up in those debates? Sure. This is the only discussion of it I have ever seen in literally thousands of them, where anyone has asserted it's the "real" problem between VtM fans and WtA fans. The reason is simple. Fans aren't the characters. Being a fan of VtM doesn't mean you hate werewolves just because vampires hate werewolves. Being a fan of WtA doesn't mean you hate vampires just because werewolves hate vampires. It's a ridiculous premise to the extent that it's ignored even in heated flame wars.

                  Who actually gives a shit any more? It's not '95. What WoD fans still don't understand really basic things like the Garou are supposed to be exceedingly flawed as individuals and a society that undermines their zealous endeavors? The WtA books love to hammer that point home. What VtM fans are (ridiculously) pointing to WtA as a bad game for having flawed characters....even though that's the whole point of VtM too?

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                    WHAT would it take from WtA? Inner logic? oWoD never have one. On the other hand - VtM-fans would not look down on your very favorite splat as on the fascists and until your became the splat's worst hater (that's my case).
                    Speak for yourself. As you can tell from my avatar and username, I'm a huge fan of Vampire: The Masquerade and yet I love Werewolf: The Apocalypse.

                    My vampire characters have bound Garou in chains of silver and offered them as a delicacy to their guests. Meanwhile, my werewolf characters once cut off a neonate's limbs and watched him squirm as the sun rose.

                    Shockingly, you can get into the mindset of both splats and do awful things without ceasing to be a fan of either.

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                    • #70
                      Werewolves are not good guys.
                      Werewolf the Apocalypse was written around their tragedy. They are a race created for WAR. ''Warriors of Gaia''. Pretty simple to understand.
                      Most of them are fanatics and ready for any kind of radical action to protect nature. And nature is not democratic or kind.
                      To be a warrior race you must maintain old tradition and discipline, because as a warrior you need lust for war, and garou MUST wage war against the wyrm and it's minions. Is in their blood, it's their purpose, it's why they were created, and that's why most of them are tainted with all tradition and intolerance. Hate is an emotion that must be kept under control, not something you can just avoid or ban as something that shouldn't exist , because, if you like it or not, hate is part of the human-emotion spectrume, and a tribe without hate for the wyrm can't even have chance to find discipline in the mist of their own rage to fight it. And most of all: that's the tragedy of werewolf the apocalypse. Think about the talons. They are the closest to Gaia and at the same time they feel more hate than humans themsleves. And hate is so human. One of the coolest and mature thing of the game are the thousand paradox, contaddictions and moral problems that came up when you play a character that mix human moral attitude with an ancestral mission, blessed and damned with rage and animal instinct. Rage and Gnosis: it means you feel Gaia as your mother, and you feel and know that your mother is being raped every day by the wyrm. And so, bad things happens.
                      Everyone is free to play the game he wants, but Werewolf the Apocalypse is not created to be Captain Planet: really bad shit happens in WtA. It's a mature game. And it means you have to deal with a race that discriminate his weakest members because they need strong warrios, they must breed even if they are not etero because they are less every day. Of course is not the same in every tribe, but there are a lot of tribes that are litterally Nietzsche, three meters high, with claws and bad attitude.
                      So yes, I hope they will still hate vampires and kill them on sight. Why? Because it's part of Werewolf, part of the tragedy, part of what means to be a garou, among a lot of other things, good and bad.
                      With the bad shit is happening outside, Bone Gnawers, Children and Glass Walkers must work really hard to prove that humanity can be guided again. Because people like the Get, Fianna, Fangs and Talons are going to be really pissed off.
                      Can't imagine towards vampires.
                      Last edited by Helur; 09-11-2019, 07:08 AM.


                      -'' We are the unsullied.
                      We are the inheritors.
                      We are the Pure ''-

                      I'm the guy who draws werewolves.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        Who actually gives a shit any more? It's not '95. What WoD fans still don't understand really basic things like the Garou are supposed to be exceedingly flawed as individuals and a society that undermines their zealous endeavors? The WtA books love to hammer that point home. What VtM fans are (ridiculously) pointing to WtA as a bad game for having flawed characters....even though that's the whole point of VtM too?
                        VtM characters wasn't mean to be a good guys. And they don't call themselves a heroes.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Helur View Post
                          Werewolves are not good guys.
                          Can't imagine towards vampires.
                          I can. "Fuck these freaks, but our enemies are not them (mostly)@.
                          Tbh, I really don't like the imbalance between "Garou are heroes who you suppose to rooting for" and "Garou are stupid angry motherfuckers and hypocrites". I know, that's kinda the point but it never worked well for me. Despite I usually like dark and evil characters, like this for example:
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBMW4vUCvcA​
                          Dude on the video is sociopath and murder (and vampire btw), but he seems to be much better person for me, than your average Garou.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                            I can. "Fuck these freaks, but our enemies are not them (mostly)@.
                            Tbh, I really don't like the imbalance between "Garou are heroes who you suppose to rooting for" and "Garou are stupid angry motherfuckers and hypocrites". I know, that's kinda the point but it never worked well for me. Despite I usually like dark and evil characters, like this for example:
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBMW4vUCvcA​
                            Dude on the video is sociopath and murder (and vampire btw), but he seems to be much better person for me, than your average Garou.

                            If you can make a moral choice between a genocidal wolf-born beast born to kill in the name of nature and a sociopath murderous undead manipulator, generalizing on all the garou race, well, I'm happy for you.
                            I can't


                            -'' We are the unsullied.
                            We are the inheritors.
                            We are the Pure ''-

                            I'm the guy who draws werewolves.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Helur View Post


                              If you can make a moral choice between a genocidal wolf-born beast born to kill in the name of nature and a sociopath murderous undead manipulator, generalizing on all the garou race, well, I'm happy for you.
                              I can't
                              Those sociopath is good in solving unwanted pregnancies problem))

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                                Those sociopath is good in solving unwanted pregnancies problem))
                                Pretty sure the avarage red talon can say the same about himself.


                                -'' We are the unsullied.
                                We are the inheritors.
                                We are the Pure ''-

                                I'm the guy who draws werewolves.

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