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  • #76
    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
    VtM characters wasn't mean to be a good guys. And they don't call themselves a heroes.
    Everyone in VtM thinks they're the heroes of the story.

    The Camarilla thinks they're the heroes because their structure and rules keep vampires and humans as safe as possible. They're the line between humans hunting vampires to extinction, and vampires becoming mad tyrants ruling over humanity as night-kings. Of course, the Cam is also an oppressive institution that asserts itself on you if you like it or not (esp. it's right to kill you because of its rules), that spends more of its resources enriching the few and exploiting the many.

    The Anarchs think they're the heroes because they can do everything the Cam does, without being a bunch of power hungry elitist assholes about it. They're deluded to think that they're anything more than repeating the same mistakes as the Cam though, because there is a level of organization and institution you need to really balance the Masquerade and vampire nature against each other. You can't just have everyone off doing things their own way.

    The Sabbat think they're the heroes because they're not deluding vampires about the reality of the WoD. Th ancient blood gods can awaken at any moment and wipe out humanity and vampires, so all the petty squabbling about control and human morality and what not is dooming everyone that doesn't get on board with just accepting that vampires and monsters, but the worst of the worst need to be fought not turned into myths and forgotten. And of course, they're the most morally atrocious group of the bunch.

    You seem to be struggling with the difference between "protagonist" and "good guy." The WoD games generally focus on protagonists, not good guys, as the player characters; even if they're not the worst guys to help keep them good protagonist material.

    The Garou aren't meant to be good guys, even if to 90s sensibilities the were more sympathetic than the vampires as being on the right side of human social issues more than not. What they call themselves is irrelevant.


    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
    Tbh, I really don't like the imbalance between "Garou are heroes who you suppose to rooting for" and "Garou are stupid angry motherfuckers and hypocrites". I know, that's kinda the point but it never worked well for me.
    Fine. WtA isn't your game. Cool. Tastes differ. Don't try to make it more than what it is.

    If you don't wan to play the contradiction between the good heroic ideals of the Garou against their hypocrisy and failures, WtA isn't the game for you. That doesn't make it a bad game, or a game you need to misrepresent to others to justify your tastes. It's no different than someone that doesn't like the juxtaposition of vampires as creatures of deep personal horror, and vampires as political monsters in an epic shadow war.

    You can try to cut out the parts of the game you don't like. You can muddle through if you're having fun anyway. You can go play something else.

    Stirring up needless antagonism between fans doesn't solve your problem, or help anyone else,

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Lashet View Post
      Garou kill vampires whenever they can. OIf their position would be like " Don't touch us and go away" I would would be the first who'd approved them.

      Humans kill Vampires whenever they can. Vampires kill vampires whenever they can. The default possition of being a vampire is "SHIT WANTS TO KILL ME FOR BEING A MONSTER". Notice how ever "moral" vampire group... is particularly prone to murdering kindred.

      Garou are not special in hating and killing vampires. They are just the ones Vampire stupidly poke their fingers in and get killed the most.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Lashet View Post
        You guys are not slightly better than - average - camarilla vampire. When a Garou kills a vampire with Humanity 7 - who most probably hurt well less people than this garou himself - that's just plain wrong.
        Humanity 7 isn't "The average" its a neonate untouched by the real issues. 4 and 5 are "average" humanities for vampires who've actually done something. This is before the fact that Kindred society by its nature is a vast conspiracy to hide all sorts of criminal acts and thus while Humanity 7 vampire may not have done something personally evil by being a part of a vast conspiracy to protect various slavers, murders and so on who will NEVER be punished for it. They have intrinsically made the world worse. There's a reason why all the "Good" splats in Vampire intrinsically wish to murder other Vampires.

        You'll notice how the EVEN at best the justification for this is "if humans knew about us they would kill us all" so vampires work from the premise that they are such monsters they cannot be known about. That Humans would just kill them on sight there is no reasoning with people. Garou are litterally treated no differently than NORMAL PEOPLE. Except you know.. normal people can't tear you in half.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Lian View Post

          Humanity 7 isn't "The average" its a neonate untouched by the real issues. 4 and 5 are "average" humanities for vampires who've actually done something. This is before the fact that Kindred society by its nature is a vast conspiracy to hide all sorts of criminal acts and thus while Humanity 7 vampire may not have done something personally evil by being a part of a vast conspiracy to protect various slavers, murders and so on who will NEVER be punished for it. They have intrinsically made the world worse. There's a reason why all the "Good" splats in Vampire intrinsically wish to murder other Vampires.

          You'll notice how the EVEN at best the justification for this is "if humans knew about us they would kill us all" so vampires work from the premise that they are such monsters they cannot be known about. That Humans would just kill them on sight there is no reasoning with people. Garou are litterally treated no differently than NORMAL PEOPLE. Except you know.. normal people can't tear you in half.
          Garou treated differently than mages and fairies.

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          • #80
            No, they're not.

            Multiple posters have all explained repeatedly that the Garou anti-vampire bias isn't actually special for the WoD.

            If you're here to convince people? You're failing because you're refusing to engage with what people are saying. You're never going to convince people by directly contradicting the books to make your point.

            If you're here to receive some sort of ego-boost for you insight? You're not going to get it, because you're not saying anything useful, insightful, or meaningful to people that actually know these games.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              No, they're not.

              Multiple posters have all explained repeatedly that the Garou anti-vampire bias isn't actually special for the WoD.

              If you're here to convince people? You're failing because you're refusing to engage with what people are saying. You're never going to convince people by directly contradicting the books to make your point.

              If you're here to receive some sort of ego-boost for you insight? You're not going to get it, because you're not saying anything useful, insightful, or meaningful to people that actually know these games.
              OK well. You're right. Garou are not gonna change couse of my disappointment. Tbh, I stopped to bother about oWoD because of Garou but... Old habits die hard)
              I just thought... what if OnyxWolf changed this only thing a bit. So I could love WtA again)
              Last edited by Lashet; 09-12-2019, 03:16 AM.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                Metagame: couse VtM is a separate splat (the main one for oWoD) while Fomori and Infernalists are antagonists.
                Well, if you read a vampire game core book, Lupines are antagonstits. If you read WtA, vampires are. As are Hunters. Tha game lines aren't meant to be mixed. The PCs of one game are supposed to be NPCs in the other.

                Besides that, vampire PCs are bullshit. They have to sleep the whole day. Their entire (un)life cycle is a ridiculous burden to everyone, most of all the ST who would have to adapt all planning to night time plots.
                Just for your information: Here in Germany people sleep at night. There is for example, by law, no 24/7 bodega (maybe a gas station shop, in rare cases).

                Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                Inuniverse: Werewolves should actually hunt those vampires who are on the way. But not adequate and normal Anarchy and Camarillian.
                They might not recognise a vampire if the vampire doesn't do something that is worth killing it for.

                Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                Tbh, I really don't like the imbalance between "Garou are heroes who you suppose to rooting for" and "Garou are stupid angry motherfuckers and hypocrites". I know, that's kinda the point but it never worked well for me.
                Sorry, it didn't work for you.
                Personally I see it as a contradiction that makes a facaded character, not unlike the vampire monster who pretends to be a part of society, adhering to the social standards and convention of the Camarilla.

                Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                OK well. You're right. Garou are not gonna change couse of my disappointment. Tbh, I stopped to bother about oWoD because of Garou but... Old habits die hard)
                I just thought... what if OnyxWolf changed this only thing a bit. So I could love WtA again)
                Why did you let someone talk you out of lovin' WtA in the first place?

                I mean, from a WtA standpoint there is nothing bad in killing vamps and from a VtM standpoint there is nothing bad about Lupines in the woods trying to kill vampires.

                The only problem about one splat "inherently hating" another would arise when you attempt crossover. And if you are frustrated because you can't be a vampire accepting, yet traditional garou in a troupe of vamps. So, be an exception. A changeling supplement made a garou the camarilla prince of a small town, yeahy crossover. If a group of traditional garou doesn't want a vampire amongst them, well so don't play one. Maybe convince them of a mummy, risen, lich or - urgh - thinblood, or don't play with them.

                Accepting each game as it's own standalone game, with interlinking elements, is the solution to the dilema.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Lashet View Post

                  Garou treated differently than mages and fairies.

                  No they don't Garou aren't even practically treated as differently from NORMAL PEOPLE. Generally speaking the two things that will get a vampire killed by a Garou: Invading their territory(something that I will repeatedly point out any and every other supernatural type is just as guilty of killing vampires for ESPECIALLY other vampires) and B the Vampire does something horrifically monsterous infront of said Garou, like eat a baby or kill a family or frenzy and eat someone(its like the Masquerade serves a purpose or something)

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                    I just thought... what if OnyxWolf changed this only thing a bit. So I could love WtA again)
                    You don't need Onyx Path or White Wolf (they are and never have been the same company) to change anything.

                    The only thing that needs to happen is for you to let go of whatever misrepresentations convinced you that what you want wasn't always the case in the actual game.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Lashet View Post

                      OK well. You're right. Garou are not gonna change couse of my disappointment. Tbh, I stopped to bother about oWoD because of Garou but... Old habits die hard)
                      I just thought... what if OnyxWolf changed this only thing a bit. So I could love WtA again)

                      Nope Scourges are still a thing! Vampires regularly kill high humanity "Wouldn't hurt a fly" types because they are too thin of blood. The natural reaction to an elaborate criminal conspiracy of vampires was... the government trying to take them out(and being rather far more successful than any garou has ever been!)

                      The Anarch movement and Camarilla are at eachother's throats So its probably worse than ever for vampire survival.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        I think it's a lot less common than it was 20 years ago.

                        IME, back when there was just the WoD, the tension between fans of the games was much higher and the OP's concerns could have been more meaningful to me. Call it a silver lining or whatever, but the original end of the WoD, and the start of the (now) CofD, heralded a fairly large unification of WoD fans (esp. as this time period was also a major shift in popular game design, and small press distribution).
                        I sometimes wonder if I was some sort of strange outlier just because I tended to enjoy all of the games equally back then, though usually for different reasons. I think from around 95 or so going forward, the idea was that while they share the same general setting, they were all meant to be separate stand alone games.
                        I also remember when Hunter: The Reckoning first came out, and alt.games.white-wolf was full of "Hunters are RACIST1 because they hunt my favorite character type!" I think there's always been a class of World of Darkness fan who wants their Gangrel, Garou, Verbena and Changelings to all dance together in moonlit glades to the music of Loreena McKennitt (or whatever the current equivalent is), and if you like that sort of thing, cool, but you're never really going to see that take in any source material that came out after 1995.

                        (In my own games, I tend to treat the entire planet as much more xenophobic in general than the real world, as its a part of the Gothic genre and it's a natural outgrowth of living in a world full of inhuman forces that constantly seek to prey on people. Any stranger is a potential threat, and that belief persists among urban ethnic enclaves, the LGBT+ community, religious minorities, upscale gated communities, small towns, tribal peoples, and so forth all over the globe. Likewise among the supernatural, where all of them are under constant threat from some outside force - vampires from discovery by the living and from the plots of their own kind, Garou from the forces of the Wyrm and Weaver, mages from the Technocracy, wraiths from the forces of Oblivion, and changelings from Banality and other enemies. As they say, it's not paranoia if someone is actually out to get you.)

                        1And I really get annoyed when people casually throw terms like that or "fascist" around as lazy synonyms for "something I don't like."


                        What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                        Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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