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  • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    There's nothing quite as lazy as dismissing negativity as fear mongering.
    It’s not lazy and fear mongering is exactly what it is. Y’all are rousing each other up by imagining how terrible it can be instead of taking an alternative route and wondering about how good it could be.

    Now if it comes out and it’s trash yeah I’ll own up to being wrong, but it isn’t out yet and for all we know the design team could be long time werewolf fans who respect the lore. Putting the horse before the carriage.

    Also did not know changing ways was edited before release. That’s terrible for the writers who worked on the elements of the book that were good.


    WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

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    • Originally posted by Lyrics Of War View Post
      It’s not lazy and fear mongering is exactly what it is. Y’all are rousing each other up by imagining how terrible it can be instead of taking an alternative route and wondering about how good it could be.
      It's exceedingly lazy.

      It's lazy because you're treating a group of people as a hivemind so that you don't have to deal with the nuance of each individual's actual thoughts, feelings, and positions.

      It's lazy because you're using a label to avoid having to engage with actual posts where you'd have to do more than use a label like it was a magic wand to make it go away.

      It's lazy because you're committing the same sort of hypocrisy as Nicolas just apologized for where you're forced to argue that people pessimistic about W5 should have their ability to post about W5 curtained so others don't have to exert energy addressing issues they raise.

      It's also not fearmongering, because fearmongering is an active attempt to whip up fear and panic to a general population to mislead their decision making.

      It's not fearmongering if we can, as we have, articulate a reasonable basis for our fears about the future of WtA.

      So, yeah, get off your high horse.

      Also? I'm under no obligation to imagine W5 in any specific light. Considering my opinions of the factual on the record thing that is V5's base system, I can't imagine W5 being what I would call "good" as it is, because the foundations would be the same foundations I don't think are of that quality. Even so, despite your vapid accusations, I spent multiple posts in this thread defending V5's Hunger mechanics (which I highly dislike) as something that could be salvaged for Rage in W5. Because you're, yes lazy, statements show you're not really paying attention to anything other than reasons to tone police.

      Now if it comes out and it’s trash yeah I’ll own up to being wrong,...
      Of course, you never have to, because you can defend whatever it is, no matter how it ends up, as good to you. If you want to say something like this that has some meaning to it, give some metrics we can actually hold you to account for.

      ...but it isn’t out yet and for all we know the design team could be long time werewolf fans who respect the lore.
      These two ideas have no logical connection.

      So what if they are? The V5 team was made up of long time VtM fans who believe they respect the lore, and respected the lore with V5; however I feel about that. Being fans of the game, doesn't mean anything for predicting the product they'll turn out.

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      • So, any news, leaks or some other infos about upcoming stuff?

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        • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
          Also,I gotta say I'm disappointed with the admins not banning brothermouse.
          If you have a problem with another user's conduct you need to hit that report button.


          Onyx Path Forum Moderator
          Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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          • Originally posted by Lyrics Of War View Post

            It’s not lazy and fear mongering is exactly what it is. Y’all are rousing each other up by imagining how terrible it can be instead of taking an alternative route and wondering about how good it could be.
            It is not fear mongering to say "this other thing the company put out was subjectively bad, these other things the company forced changes on was subjectively bad, and since that is all I have available regarding the company's handling of the game, I worry this new thing will also be subjectively bad". That is simple extrapolation.

            Fear mongering would be saying "nWW's handling of the WoD game licenses will make the entire WoD franchise poisoned, ruining it for the future and for all time". While there are people out there saying that (or similar stuff), it's not a prevalent theme in this thread. They are looking at V5, looking at nWW's statements, looking at the products for the WoD that nWW had altered, and they are making a judgement based on that previous behavior.

            It's not lazy to look at the past evidence and past behavior, to look at the current statements and see how they line up with that past behavior, and to then expect more of the same. That objectively takes more effort than to wave a hand at it all and say "I'm sure it will all be fine, because I want it to be fine". Laziness is handwaving those concerns with a generalized label and upturned nose.


            Writing up Clanbook: Aabbt

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            • Originally posted by Vysha View Post

              It is not fear mongering to say "this other thing the company put out was subjectively bad, these other things the company forced changes on was subjectively bad, and since that is all I have available regarding the company's handling of the game, I worry this new thing will also be subjectively bad". That is simple extrapolation.

              Fear mongering would be saying "nWW's handling of the WoD game licenses will make the entire WoD franchise poisoned, ruining it for the future and for all time". While there are people out there saying that (or similar stuff), it's not a prevalent theme in this thread. They are looking at V5, looking at nWW's statements, looking at the products for the WoD that nWW had altered, and they are making a judgement based on that previous behavior.

              It's not lazy to look at the past evidence and past behavior, to look at the current statements and see how they line up with that past behavior, and to then expect more of the same. That objectively takes more effort than to wave a hand at it all and say "I'm sure it will all be fine, because I want it to be fine". Laziness is handwaving those concerns with a generalized label and upturned nose.
              I don’t know where the hell you lot are deriving arrogance from on my part. The developer of w5 is a long time fan of werewolf who says (at least in the podcast) that he’s dedicated to respecting the world of werewolf while introducing new lore. It all sounded pretty good and frankly I’m a little stoked. The whole crew dedicated themselves to getting this contract, and as fans I can’t imagine they’d want to bone it up.

              No what I’ve seen from this thread is “v5 is something I subjectively hate for x reason so w5 will be terrible because.” It’s about as bad as the warhammer fan base raging about every thing games workshop does (while weirdly defending their pricing which is predatory at best.).

              If anything I feel bad for the new devs since they’re already set with the bar against them. That’s stress they don’t need.

              The podcast in question is the werewolf: the podcast. Give it a listen.


              WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

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              • Originally posted by Lyrics Of War View Post

                I don’t know where the hell you lot are deriving arrogance from on my part. The developer of w5 is a long time fan of werewolf who says (at least in the podcast) that he’s dedicated to respecting the world of werewolf while introducing new lore. It all sounded pretty good and frankly I’m a little stoked. The whole crew dedicated themselves to getting this contract, and as fans I can’t imagine they’d want to bone it up.
                As a longtime fan, were I to gain power over W5, I would drastically change a lot of things that have been getting under my skin for ages. A number of them are probably things that might not bother other people, or that others might actually have liked. Some of these might have even been central concepts; in my zeal to strike crossover from the integral structure of the game, for instance, I'd be at least sorely tempted to make drastic edits to the Silent Striders so that they spent too long around ghosts instead of being cursed by a borrowed, vampiric version of a Robert E. Howard character. I'm really tired of having to explain why the Metis breed is named the way it is in light of real world prejudices, and I'm not attached to the pseudeolatinate names of the others, so I would probably change them all, maybe even change the splat term "Breed" to something else like Birth, Origin, etc. Thrall of the Wyrm would be out (at least as a game term) in favor of Wits rolls for any frenzy to see if you chow down on a fallen enemy, like in 1e. If you're okay with Rage being measured in discrete states like the anima banner from Exalted 3rd edition, you wouldn't say that I boned it up, but if you were hoping for something closer to Hunger, well, it wouldn't be your lucky day if I ended up at the helm.

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                • "... a long time fan .........who says that he’s dedicated to respecting the world of ********** while introducing new lore."

                  Yep, pretty much exactly that phrase was said ( typed) to me by Matthew Dawkins about V5 before it came out in an attempt to allay the concerns I had during playtesting.

                  And here we are.

                  Maybe I'm wrong, I'd super-love to be wrong but every recent experience I've had tells me I'm not.

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                  • Originally posted by Damian May View Post
                    "... a long time fan .........who says that he’s dedicated to respecting the world of ********** while introducing new lore."

                    Yep, pretty much exactly that phrase was said ( typed) to me by Matthew Dawkins about V5 before it came out in an attempt to allay the concerns I had during playtesting.

                    And here we are.

                    Maybe I'm wrong, I'd super-love to be wrong but every recent experience I've had tells me I'm not.
                    Werewolf does play differently from vampire as well.

                    I was having a conversation with a long time vampire player about world of darkness and changed and he remarked “the world of today is not the world of the 90s.” And taking that into account has made all the difference.

                    For what it’s worth I also hope you’re wrong. We have at least one year to wait and see.


                    WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

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                    • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                      As a longtime fan, were I to gain power over W5, I would drastically change a lot of things that have been getting under my skin for ages. A number of them are probably things that might not bother other people, or that others might actually have liked. Some of these might have even been central concepts; in my zeal to strike crossover from the integral structure of the game, for instance, I'd be at least sorely tempted to make drastic edits to the Silent Striders so that they spent too long around ghosts instead of being cursed by a borrowed, vampiric version of a Robert E. Howard character. I'm really tired of having to explain why the Metis breed is named the way it is in light of real world prejudices, and I'm not attached to the pseudeolatinate names of the others, so I would probably change them all, maybe even change the splat term "Breed" to something else like Birth, Origin, etc. Thrall of the Wyrm would be out (at least as a game term) in favor of Wits rolls for any frenzy to see if you chow down on a fallen enemy, like in 1e. If you're okay with Rage being measured in discrete states like the anima banner from Exalted 3rd edition, you wouldn't say that I boned it up, but if you were hoping for something closer to Hunger, well, it wouldn't be your lucky day if I ended up at the helm.
                      Elements of the game changing to modernize are not the same as boning up a central core of the game, and the things you suggested are not unreasonable. I think the bigger hang ups come from the depth of apocalypse lore, but changes are a thing and we’ve accepted them before. He’ll book of the wyrm 20 changed quite a bit about black spirals and for the better I feel. But the change is def easier in a game like forsaken where the stories are more left open as a possible reality, vs cWoD “this def happened.”


                      WoD-Dark Eras!! (Backed for Viking Age Werewolf)

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                      • Originally posted by Lyrics Of War View Post
                        I don’t know where the hell you lot are deriving arrogance from on my part.
                        While I wouldn't call it arrogance exactly, it's mostly the part where you're trying to make us feel bad for not being excited about a product even though you've given us zero reasons to challenge our preconceptions based on experience.

                        The developer of w5 is a long time fan of werewolf who says (at least in the podcast) that he’s dedicated to respecting the world of werewolf while introducing new lore. It all sounded pretty good and frankly I’m a little stoked. The whole crew dedicated themselves to getting this contract, and as fans I can’t imagine they’d want to bone it up.
                        This is what Martin, Kumar, and Matthew Dawkins have all said about V5. It might have gotten my intrigued back when V5 was still a plan and a pitch, but now that I've been burnt by the new WW on this, my ability to get stoked is rather dead.

                        What has Ivan said that's supposed to reassure me that he's not going to repeat what happened with them? Hearing him talk, I'm hearing a lot of the same stuff we heard when Martin first started the rounds of promoting the new WW and V5.

                        Also, the desire to not, "bone it up," is also a problem. The nWoD/CofD is actually a great example here. The early nWoD books were too conservative in the desire to not bone it up, to make something new but familiar, and it ended up losing a lot of the cWoD fans instead of bringing them along. It wasn't until Changeling the Lost just going completely different from Dreaming that it became clear that the nWoD fans were cool with a much more unique game, and the cWoD fans that would be open to the nWoD definitely wanted more radical different takes on concepts. We saw this in how the CofD era lead to pushing the games much farther from their cWoD roots, and refining what makes them uniquely good games.

                        You wouldn't get the CofD books now, by tossing the games to someone without the institutional memory and experience to accomplish that refinement. There's too many things that would look like insane risks to someone trying to not bone it up.

                        Another example is the Exalted 3e development cycle and how messy the core book ended up because people were stepping up from making late-game supplements to being in-charge of the whole damned thing.

                        No what I’ve seen from this thread is “v5 is something I subjectively hate for x reason so w5 will be terrible because.”
                        Dismissing it at, "because," is no different than calling it lazy.

                        The podcast in question is the werewolf: the podcast. Give it a listen.
                        If you want people to listen to something? It helps to at least link to it. Most people aren't going to Goggle a podcast, dedicated 30 min. (or more for many) because you don't want to make a point for yourself.

                        https://keepontheheathlands.podbean....n-annoucement/

                        See? Not hard.

                        Originally posted by Lyrics Of War View Post
                        Werewolf does play differently from vampire as well.
                        That doesn't address the concerns being raised at all.
                        Last edited by Heavy Arms; 01-19-2020, 06:52 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by Damian May View Post
                          "... a long time fan .........who says that he’s dedicated to respecting the world of ********** while introducing new lore."

                          Yep, pretty much exactly that phrase was said ( typed) to me by Matthew Dawkins about V5 before it came out in an attempt to allay the concerns I had during playtesting.

                          And here we are.

                          Maybe I'm wrong


                          Yes. Here we are. And I think you're wrong.



                          Months later where V5 books led by Matthew Dawkins have made mucho $$$$$ on two Kickstarters and are both very favorably reviewed. Chicago by Night, from what I've been told, is amazing, and all of the previews from CotBG look fantastic. The last of which has just made 140k and broken past numerous stretch goals. These forums are SUPER negative when it comes to most things V5, and I understand why V5 devs wouldn't want to come here. I also understand that V5 is not for me, and that's cool, too. I love saving money. But I'd be an idiot to think it hasn't been successful--especially with Dawkins at the helm of Chicago by Night and Blood Gods.

                          He HAS respected the World of Darkness, he has introduced new lore, and he IS a long-time fan.



                          I'm willing to give W5 a chance.
                          Last edited by Fat Larry; 01-19-2020, 07:11 PM.


                          The Final Frontier

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                          • Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post



                            Yes. Here we are. And I think you're wrong.



                            Months later where V5 books led by Matthew Dawkins have made mucho $$$$$ on two Kickstarters and are both very favorably reviewed. Chicago by Night, from what I've been told, is amazing, and all of the previews from CotBG look fantastic. The last of which has just made 140k and broken past numerous stretch goals. These forums are SUPER negative when it comes to most things V5, and I understand why V5 devs wouldn't want to come here. I also understand that V5 is not for me, and that's cool, too. I love saving money. But I'd be an idiot to think it hasn't been successful--especially with Dawkins at the helm of Chicago by Night and Blood Gods.
                            Money doesn't enter into it. D&D can easily make more money than all the WoD games combined, but there's a good reason that very few people are in a rush to make the WoD games more like D&D. It would ruin the play style, clash with a lot of messages, and all around make a mess of things, particularly since a lot of people go into WW's rps because they weren't D&D. That's setting aside that there are some things you can't just duplicate with design decisions, like the lengthy publishing history (17 years longer than V:tM as the Xerox of ttrpgs) or being owned and backed by Hasbro (ten times or more the worth of Paradox Entertainment AB, with much more influential IPs from board games).

                            He HAS respected the World of Darkness, he has introduced new lore, and he IS a long-time fan.
                            That's a question of personal taste. As noted in this thread several times, it's not really indicative of anything.

                            I'm willing to give W5 a chance.
                            To not be for you anymore, by your own admission?

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                            • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                              Money doesn't enter into it.
                              I stopped reading after that.


                              Sorry.

                              Take care.

                              Edit: Sorry if that came off as harsh. But I have neither the energy nor time for something that would be so futile. IMO, of course.
                              Last edited by Fat Larry; 01-19-2020, 09:44 PM.


                              The Final Frontier

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                              • *Sigh*

                                I think you missed my point.

                                Long term fan. Check.
                                Introduced New Lore. Check.
                                Respectful to what has gone before. Probably in his own opinion, yes.

                                And yet I've still ended up with a game that doesn't really resemble it's forebears very much at all and that, after trying it for an extended period of time, I've determined is basically unplayable for myself and others I have with.

                                So, therefore, I would obviously have grave concerns on what my favourite game of the past 20+ years is going to be turned into.

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