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Hunters Entertainment with Paradox to create Werewolf: The Apocalypse 5th edition.

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  • #16
    Because Onyx Path made excellent W20 and quite good supplements for it (including Book of Wyrm and excluding Changing ways ). They had their run and I'm bit sad that WW cancelled new books and made Shattered dreams unofficial. And it's time for something new. WW's job is to direct WtA 5 creators in way WW wish. There are as many ,,WtA propers" as players. WtA was in stagnation from a lot of time, It's like with V5. Many hate it but I've already seen NEW players that like it a lot. The same might be with WtA. The game shouldn't be made directly for old fanbase cause fanbase yes's and no's dictates what the game should look like in the eyes of ,,experienced" fans. And the new one should shut their mouths and listen to veterans cause they are right because they are ... right! I would rebuild it for new fans without looking back at barking of old dogs. Inlcuding me. Im excited because it might be different than I expected. And that rekindled flame of passion for this game.
    Last edited by werewolf43; 12-09-2019, 04:32 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
      Because Onyx Path made excellent W20 and quite good supplements for it (including Book of Wyrm and excluding Changing ways ). They had their run and I'm bit sad that WW cancelled new books and made Shattered dreams unofficial. And it's time for something new. WW's job is to direct WtA 5 creators in way WW wish. There are as many ,,WtA propers" as players. WtA was in stagnation from a lot of time, It's like with V5. Many hate it but I've already seen NEW players that like it a lot. The same might be with WtA. The game shouldn't be made directly for old fanbase cause fanbase yes's and no's dictates what the game should look like in the eyes of ,,experienced" fans. And the new one should shut their mouths and listen to veterans cause they are right because they are ... right! I would rebuild it for new fans without looking back at barking of old dogs. Inlcuding me. Im excited because it might be different than I expected. And that rekindled flame of passion for this game.

      The thing I don't get about this is why not just make a new game about werewolves if your going to change everything about a game.

      We definetely disagree about 'stagnation'.

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      • #18
        The new game was made and it is Werewolf the Forsaken. I'm not going to change anything because I'm not developer or WtA creator.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
          The new game was made and it is Werewolf the Forsaken. I'm not going to change anything because I'm not developer or WtA creator.

          O.....K.......

          Theres a communication issue here I don't think we're gonna solve any time soon, so I'll leave you to it.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
            And it's time for something new.
            Different people working on it doesn't mean we'll get something "new." The same people working on it doesn't mean we'll get a repeat of the "old" either.

            Onyx Path only "had their run," because WW took it away from them. They were gearing up for a new edition of the WoD before Paradox bought the IPs, so we never got to see what their vision for things would have actually been.

            There are as many ,,WtA propers" as players.
            That's missing the point.

            A new team that's not as familiar with the material is more likely to be risk adverse towards things fans perceive as sacred cows of the game and changing them. They have something to prove in this situation that a mixed group of freelancers wouldn't.

            WtA was in stagnation from a lot of time,...
            Nobody's arguing that WtA doesn't need a new edition.

            I'm questioning the logic of having an entirely brand new team take the reins of a game. WtA wasn't in stagnation because of who was writing it (which has changed multiple times over many years) but because, first the WoD was ended, and then the 20th books weren't meant to be major updates to the games.

            Many hate it but I've already seen NEW players that like it a lot.
            Great. Now imagine how much better V5 would be if it had better appeal and new players didn't go looking for people to play with and find there being a massive heated edition divide in the older fans.

            There have been new players coming to the WoD via the 20th books too... that's simply not the only important thing.

            V5 also has something Onyx Path alone can't do, and Hunters can't do either: the reach Paradox can fund. I assure you that even without a massive overhaul, if Paradox decided to get the WoD back in the spotlight with pared down versions of the 20th cores, we'd be seeing an increase in new players from exposure alone.

            The "new people, new version of the game, massive increase in sales," narrative doesn't work on it's own.

            The game shouldn't be made directly for old fanbase cause fanbase yes's and no's dictates what the game should look like in the eyes of ,,experienced" fans. And the new one should shut their mouths and listen to veterans cause they are right because they are ... right!
            What does this have to do with getting people that have never worked on a WtA game, or a WoD game, before being a "blessing" for the game?

            You're assuming all sorts of things based on this news, but it doesn't really show any actual line of thinking that connects them.

            A new edition of WtA doesn't have to pick between old fans and new fans; it can appeal to both. But that's exactly why you need people that know the game working on it.

            And that rekindled flame of passion for this game.
            Well, my passion for WtA didn't need rekindling after two decades. So what about everyone like me that doesn't want to have our passion for it snuffed out because what we love about it was tossed out for some random new vision for the game? Why should we be ignored exactly?

            Edit:

            I'll try to take this one up too

            Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
            The new game was made and it is Werewolf the Forsaken. I'm not going to change anything because I'm not developer or WtA creator.
            So, the Forsaken really don't have anything to do with this. The point is that W5 needs to actually be a WtA game or it's going to repeat all the anger V5 stirred up by failing to balance appealing to most of both the old and new fans.

            The problem is that WW decided that the WoD was the brand to back, because it had more name recognition, even if realistically speaking the CofD is actually more the game they'd rather WoD5 be. Paradox is stuck with that choice because otherwise they'd have to take the massive PR hit of ending V5 and starting all over despite having two major video games in the works.

            People that want something different from WtA but similar have that in Forsaken. We don't need something calling itself WtA that's as different from old WtA as Forsaken is from old WtA. We need a new edition of WtA.

            The "you" you're responding to was the general you, not the personal you. Damian didn't mean you, werewolf43, specifically.
            Last edited by Heavy Arms; 12-09-2019, 05:40 AM.

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            • #21
              1. I'm aware why Onyx Path ended WtA stuff and that they were planing the new WoD eidtions. I'm aware that WW's trying to make WoD top game again. Thing is that many on this forum including You seems to think that OP and WW have monopoly on WoD and puting game in any other company's hands is abomination. Cause new guys might bring new ideas different from Your view. I am afraid of that too but the licence is in the Paradox hands, they are doing with it what they want. Different people might include new fresh ideas and that would be blessing for stagnation.

              2. . Familiarity with game material. I think that there are some thing that WW won't allow and spaces that they demand to change. I have faith in new team creativity but under the eye of WW. And I don;t think they will start to work without knowing anything with old material

              3. The thing with old and new players is silmple. The old players are mature people now. New players I know are kids I used to be, I'd like to be but I'm not anymore. They don't argue like olders about really unimportand things like You and I are doing right now, they sit and play - that's how I see it in my city and among fresh players I've met.

              4. ,,You're assuming all sorts of things based on this news, but it doesn't really show any actual line of thinking that connects them." right, I'm always writing chaoticly, but it's the lack of english skills in writing, it's annoying for me that I can't express myself and write all the things I'd like to, but english isn't my first language and I've learned some of it by myself only.

              5. It could be for old and new and it is not so difficult. Messing with the plot and world and past of storyline will be horrific for old players. System for new ones is tabula rasa, they start from beginning. The question is , should the makers care about old fans ? Only if WW wish it.

              6. So what about everyone like me that doesn't want to have our passion for rekindled love snuffed out because what we hope about it was tossed out for some sticking to old fanbase vision for the game? Why should we be ignored exactly?


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post





                So, the Forsaken really don't have anything to do with this. The point is that W5 needs to actually be a WtA game or it's going to repeat all the anger V5 stirred up by failing to balance appealing to most of both the old and new fans.

                The problem is that WW decided that the WoD was the brand to back, because it had more name recognition, even if realistically speaking the CofD is actually more the game they'd rather WoD5 be. Paradox is stuck with that choice because otherwise they'd have to take the massive PR hit of ending V5 and starting all over despite having two major video games in the works.

                People that want something different from WtA but similar have that in Forsaken. We don't need something calling itself WtA that's as different from old WtA as Forsaken is from old WtA. We need a new edition of WtA.

                The "you" you're responding to was the general you, not the personal you. Damian didn't mean you, werewolf43, specifically.
                That was my misunderstanding, I aspologize.

                I agree! We should get WtA. It was is and should be Werewolf the Apocalypse, not Forsaken. I want the tribes, the lore, the breeds, all 5 patronats. The change I am hoping for is this. The game is quite old for an rpg. I'd like to read about garou struggling in modern world. World that made great leap, big progress in science, technology, pollution of the planet, corruption, and other things I would call dehumanization. I'd like to see garou in nowdays.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
                  Thing is that many on this forum including You seems to think that OP and WW have monopoly on WoD and puting game in any other company's hands is abomination.
                  This needling exaggeration does you nothing.

                  I have faith in new team creativity but under the eye of WW.
                  Based on?

                  The old players are mature people now. New players I know are kids I used to be, I'd like to be but I'm not anymore.
                  These simplistic generalizations are also useless. People are people. There are people coming to the WoD TT RPGs despite being older, and younger people well steeped in all this Internet drama.

                  ...it's annoying for me that I can't express myself and write all the things I'd like to, but english isn't my first language and I've learned some of it by myself only.
                  I appreciate that. But in my experience dealing with things in languages that I learned later in life, keep it simple if you're feel like you're not being understood.

                  It could be for old and new and it is not so difficult.
                  I never said that. The fact that it is difficult is exactly why I don't like the idea of people that have never worked on WtA doing it.

                  Messing with the plot and world and past of storyline will be horrific for old players.

                  No. It's all a matter of execution. I've dealt with multiple editions of metaplot, setting changes, and retcons. The idea that it might happen doesn't horrify me. Who's in charge of it right now has, however, destroyed my confidence that it will go well.

                  Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
                  I agree! We should get WtA. It was is and should be Werewolf the Apocalypse, not Forsaken. I want the tribes, the lore, the breeds, all 5 patronats. The change I am hoping for is this. The game is quite old for an rpg. I'd like to read about garou struggling in modern world. World that made great leap, big progress in science, technology, pollution of the planet, corruption, and other things I would call dehumanization. I'd like to see garou in nowdays.
                  Which... doesn't really explain why you think a brand new team is so valuable to the game. You're talking about all this potential change, but now talking about just moving the game forward in time.

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                  • #24
                    1. Based not on Icarus but on Kids on bikes. They handled the game of strange things pretty well.
                    2. Age generalisation isn't as usless as You think. There's rift between generations much more wider then in past ages. The general thinking is different between people in my age and their kids and they are much more separete in opinions then my grandgrandfather children was to him. And it is the same in rpg world.
                    3. Messing with plot is terryfing in eyes of peoples I talked to. Retcons , setting changes didn't waved Your confidence and appearance of new designers destroyed Your confidence? Still the game is named WtA by licence owner. You are not being afraid of retocons and similar things but by the peoples who would take the system in their hands and they have no experinece with it? Why? Maby new perspective is necessary. Maby they will se something veterans missed and that would make the game better?
                    4. But moving the game foreward in time is a big change isn't it? I'm counting on ideas of men who learn the system past stories and plots. Sticking with the old designers could be a issue with making exactly the same plot adventures and things but 20 years later, Eating their own tails. There have to be compatibility with V5 cause WW won't let them do something other. And after discussions after V5 releasing they can't afford the same mistakes.
                    Last edited by werewolf43; 12-09-2019, 07:24 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
                      1. Based not on Icarus but on Kids on bikes. They handled the game of strange things pretty well.
                      Kids on Bikes is a great game... but it's extremely far from what W5 is going to be. We don't even know if Jon and Doug are working on W5. It's not a new edition of an existing property. It's not a licensed game under an existing company, it's an awesome indie game... which is an entirely different thing than what Paradox is asking for.

                      There's rift between generations much more wider then in past ages.
                      Said basically every generation throughout history. I don't see any real reason to put any stock in this.

                      There are points in history where there really is a big change in how people think, but it's not as simple as one generation vs. another. Most recently would be the Internet and how it changes how people process information, but it's not about what year you were born it, but when the Internet became part of your cultural experience.

                      So, there is a rift around whether or not you had the Internet as a kid (which I did even when a lot of my friends didn't because it's not just age), but it's a hiccup in the course of every generation being different from the previous generation in mostly the same way, not some real trend in generational relations.

                      Retcons , setting changes didn't waved Your confidence and appearance of new designers destroyed Your confidence?
                      No, the execution of changes done under WW/Paradox's watch has destroyed my confidence in their judgement.

                      You are not being afraid of retocons and similar things but by the peoples who would take the system in their hands and they have no experinece with it? Why? Maby new perspective is necessary. Maby they will se something veterans missed and that would make the game better?
                      This is a false choice. Paradox doesn't have to pick between just veterans, or just new designers. They can gather a group that combines them. Onyx Path actually does this all the time, but it's not as obvious because the veterans are generally the ones leading the effort. If you look at things like W20 core vs. the W20 supplements you'll see a very big shift in who actually did the books from a bunch of WtA veterans to mostly newer freelancers.

                      There is no reason we can't have both... both is actually the best option, because you want to maximize the perspectives at the design meetings, not cut some out arbitrarily.

                      But moving the game foreward in time is a big change isn't it?
                      It's as big or as little as you want it to be. The only reason W5 is going to be towards the big by default is because it needs to match V5's approach of "we thought it was the End Times, but it wasn't what we thought that meant," thing.

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                      • #26
                        ,,If you look at things like W20 core vs. the W20 supplements you'll see a very big shift in who actually did the books from a bunch of WtA veterans to mostly newer freelancers".- I agree. You convinced me with this. The W20 core is a very VERY good game and VERY well written. Book of Wyrm for anniversary is a very good suplement and I enjoyed it same shattered dreams. But other stuff isn't as good as them.

                        Paradox doesn't have to pick between just veterans, or just new designers. They can gather a group that combines them - We have what we have, If they managed to do cool game they could do this again, but this time in known and popular setting, just why not? But with this let's talk about creators. Who should do the game. If You would make a team of WtA 5ed creators who would be there? I have my own wishlist: Weaver stuff - M. Pondsmith. Wyrm section - fellows from Helmgast (Kult) or Gentelman Gamer. Tribes stuff - B. Bridges. Storyline - ? Wyld - ?

                        No, the execution of changes done under WW/Paradox's watch has destroyed my confidence in their judgement. - What exaclty are You writing about? Give few examples, cause it's interesting what You write.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
                          In my opinion it is a very good move from White Wolf/Paradox. First of all it might bring refreshment to setting. New team with no ties to old WW company and creators, That is blessing for the game.
                          The meat of the game is(again in my opinion) the story and plot with fresh ideas, Trailer is something new, something exciting. All tribes failed? All right, bring it on. The game might be darker and radical. If garou declare all out war against Weaver tribe (mankind) and other enemies I'm on the hype train. And NO, I don't think that the full scale conflict was already introduced in all the past books. Litany made it shadow war. I guess that many thing will be rewrited according to the trailer including litany,
                          I bet you liked the Spellplague too, didn't you?


                          If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                          • #28
                            What is Spellplague? Ok I just checked. I'm not familiar with dnd I.don't.know the world story and events and I don't play dnd. So.I don't know if.I would.like it. But if I would play dnd and like it what would that suppose to mean about me?
                            Last edited by werewolf43; 12-09-2019, 02:33 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
                              What is Spellplague? Ok I just checked. I'm not familiar with dnd I.don't.know the world story and events and I don't play dnd. So.I don't know if.I would.like it. But if I would play dnd and like it what would that suppose to mean about me?
                              What they did with the Forgotten Realms back then was quite close to what WW did with V5 and what you'd like to see from W5. Basically, a major rewrite of a long-standing setting, to fit the new team's vision of the game more and to "make it fresh and exciting".

                              Making the assumption that you'd liked it wasn't a judgemental thing on my part. Some people like radical changes and shakeups for long-running settings and stories. Others prefer story advancement and setting changes in smaller doses, while the outlook of the setting doesn't change "that much" on the whole from one edition to the next. It seemed to me that you're in the first group, while I, for example, am in the second. Many fans are. As fans being fans, many of them tend to like the product for what and how it is and reacts negatively for radical changes, exactly because they liked it as it was. That's not the same as wanting no changes at all, mind you.

                              Revised Mage's Avatar Storm was another example.
                              Last edited by PMárk; 12-09-2019, 03:14 PM.


                              If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                              • #30
                                I'm in my own category group.of.people. I like when things are.moving.foreward. I.like acceptable changes. Changing.ways for.example.was like iron hammer smashed on my balls - unacceptable. All the writings in forum I do is my wishful thinking. My own and only mine. I'm not representing anyone just myself. I am not blind on arguments many people write and during discussion some.of them are convincing.me -. Like Heavy Arms. But I'm living too long to.not have my own opinions and ideas.
                                Hunters made well acclaimed kids on bikes and.medicore icarus , outbrake i just don't know. Indie games are.much more different then for example WoD setting. But why not to allow them to try. Look at Wrath and glory. Ulisses had fine idea that did not work well. They put their work.at.Cubicle7 hands. We do not.know if Hunter developers would consult their ideas with old creators or.stop making WtA5 cause it would be too difficult for them to.make. Today we know that they will make new edition. Few weeks.ago we didn't know that it would happen then they announced that they will make the game and now they introduced company responsible for that. We.do not know terms.and.conditions of contract. Did You expected that OP would be the chosen.Company? They would make WtA5 announcement earlier then in November. I think that they had the.posibility but question is who did not accepted other side terms. Maby WtA5 old creator said "shit we're too old for this stuff and many things killed the love.for the game in us?" maby hunter was the only.company who agreed to make the game?

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