Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hunters Entertainment with Paradox to create Werewolf: The Apocalypse 5th edition.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Camps are meant to mostly be a social faction sort of thing, though many have a few Gifts you can get at in-Tribe costs (some of which are supposed to be rare or unique to those Camps).

    Comment


    • W5 probably will have camps, for there is no reasonable way to explain them away. Mechanical the don't make to much sense, and I always rule that their camp gifts are foreign gifts for they shall not be a way to get another set of cheap gifts. Setting wise the are introduced in Player's Guides and Tribe Books and basically serve as groups of like minded garou within a tribe, possibly with some goal or duty they gave themselves. It might have been a design flaw to not make some camps inter-tribal to begin with, but that is another topic. Possibly W5 will change that and state that it has been a development of the last decade. Hopefully with a sidebar stating "Could have been intertribal since the camp formed, if you like". But I surely hope they don't shove retcons down our throat, like W20 did.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        Camps are meant to mostly be a social faction sort of thing, though many have a few Gifts you can get at in-Tribe costs (some of which are supposed to be rare or unique to those Camps).
        Thing is, most TBs have gifts of camps listed as camp gifts. TB BG rev has some gifts that are pretty obviously designed for a camp mentioned in the TB, but the gifts section doesn't divide by camps, so BG just have a huge amout of tribal-gifts from their tribebook.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

          No, my house rules have long since removed these things as being issues actually.
          My bad, and yet not my bad. The problem is the Revised core, which didn't include the 2nd edition header in the Drama chapter, "Stress", page 211. That was a vital mistake, and if you had been playing in an older game, none of what you described would have been encouraged or even allowed behavior.

          Having temp. Rage > perm. Rage is inherently a time of stress. As you yourself point out that this is only supposed to happen under significant strain in the first place. "If I don't get myself under control, I'm going to screw up this important and delicate negotiations between some Get and Wendigo," is both more than RAW justification to have a Philodox bump up to temp. Rage 4, and be under enough stress to qualify for the rider one spending Rage.
          If you have your character thinking clearly about the situation, it seems that you might not be roleplaying the extremely strained state of mind correctly. It would also be highly appropriate to roll for frenzy before allowing any other decisions on the part of the player, as well as restrict just what outlets were viable for Rage. That's part of an ST's discretion to avoid undercutting the themes of the game, and it wouldn't even come to the ST's explicit ruling if W:tA Revised had maintained some semblance of 2e's guidelines.

          The rider is, effectively, pointless. Stress generates Rage, so any time you'd want to spend Rage just for the sake of doing so you're going to be under stress.

          Where the rider in question really comes into play are things like trying to use extra actions or Rage activated Gifts in calm situations, which frequently just makes a lot of Gifts underwhelming if they require Rage but are still mostly utility effects.
          Here's what the missing pieces from 2e have to say:

          Originally posted by Werewolf 2nd Edition

          Stress

          Stress is an important consideration for werewolves. Garou cannot use Rage to gain extra actions unless they are under stress. On the other hand, too much stress can push a Garou right over the edge, sending him into a frenzy. [... outlining familiar rules for how to frenzy cut]

          So what is stress? Stress is any situation that causes tension in a character. Any time a character begins to feel edgy, threatened, or confused may qualify as a stressful situation. The following are examples:
          Combat, Impending Danger, Confusion, Unexpected Happening, Frustration (as in disarming a bomb, not typical actions), Storyteller's Discretion. [note: each has a longer description, omitted for brevity]

          Make sure that you, as the Storyteller, don't cheat your players out of stressful situations. Any combat scene is stressful, and most action scenes as well. There is nothing more frustrating to players than not being able to use their characters' special abilities (Rage), and nothing makings players leave games faster than frustration. This is not to say that you should always let players convince you into ruling that a scene is stressful. Just try to balance things out and use common sense.
          So, no, you aren't supposed to be able to just go off and burn Rage safely, regardless of whether or not you happen to think that "Stress" is too open a term for danger and uncertainty or the Revised core forgot to tell you something important. That's pretty clearly antithetical to the dramatic nature of Rage expressed in this passage. If your ST was allowing it otherwise, that was very much against the spirit of the setting and mechanics, even if it got lost in the shuffle across editions. More's the pity; it seems like it could have salvaged those games that got ruined for you, or at least helped avoid loophole abuse.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
            My bad, and yet not my bad.
            No Just your bad. You're still wrong even quoting 2e.

            That was a vital mistake...
            Or Revise and W20 (which both don't have that) felt that the words wasted on it were just that, a waste. Stress is still a broad concept and spending that much word count on it doesn't really add anything to the game. It just spends a lot of time coming up with different ways to say, "this is a potentially stressful situation."

            ..., and if you had been playing in an older game, none of what you described would have been encouraged or even allowed behavior.
            I've been playing since 2e thank you, and you're wrong in an incredibly obnoxious way:

            Because all of that stuff in 2e? It doesn't stop you from spending Rage to avoid having too much temporary Rage if the situation is stressful enough to cause that state in the first place.

            Lacking, "this is an exhaustive list of stressful situations," it doesn't change anything. That passage actually formed my old groups feelings that the "only spend Rage under stress," thing was silly, since again, the vast majority of time you're going to want to spend Rage, the situation is stressful under those guidelines. They're incredibly broad.

            If you have your character thinking clearly about the situation, it seems that you might not be roleplaying the extremely strained state of mind correctly.
            So, your best argument here is to insult my role-playing? Not exactly convincing that you have one iota of a point in your favor here.

            It would also be highly appropriate to roll for frenzy before allowing any other decisions on the part of the player, as well as restrict just what outlets were viable for Rage.
            Always options however:

            1) The ST might not really want a Frenzy fucking with the plot in that moment.

            2) The group might not want the ST to be too heavy handed with these things considering the rather high potential for catastrophic results. Nobody likes it when the game results in TPKs too often, especially if the ST keeps forcing things that way.

            If the ST has to manipulate the situation to make deny this possibility, than you're admitting it's not actually my groups being shitty readers and shitty role-players for actually paying attention to what the books say.

            So, no, you aren't supposed to be able to just go off and burn Rage safely,...
            Please highlight what line in that passage actually supports that.

            "So what is stress? Stress is any situation that causes tension in a character." Well, that's an extremely broad statement.

            "Any time a character begins to feel edgy, threatened, or confused may qualify as a stressful situation." That didn't narrow anything down. Those are just various forms of tension.

            "There is nothing more frustrating to players than not being able to use their characters' special abilities (Rage), and nothing makings players leave games faster than frustration." So, the game is saying to not be too heavy-handed. Don't be overly restrictive with what counts as stress; it's mean to be extremely open. Also, don't frustrate your players. You know what's frustrating? Constantly having to clean up after Frenzies.

            Not stated? That you can't use Rage in a stressful situation to reduce your temp. Rage on purpose.

            That's pretty clearly antithetical to the dramatic nature of Rage expressed in this passage.
            Not really, "On the other hand, too much stress can push a Garou right over the edge, sending him into a frenzy." means that the dramatic nature of Rage, as expressed, is that Garou will look for way to decrease stress because Frenzy is bad.

            If your ST was allowing it otherwise, that was very much against the spirit of the setting and mechanics, even if it got lost in the shuffle across editions.
            No, it's not. It's very much against the bad faith, obviously made up to avoid having to admit you're wrong here, interpretation you're insisting is the One True Way, even though the interpretation you're citing is clearly not supported in the books.

            Comment


            • Personally im of the mindset that Garou can "cool off" their temp. rage. They just don't because. Garou.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BrotherMouse View Post
                Personally im of the mindset that Garou can "cool off" their temp. rage. They just don't because. Garou.
                I just had my character spend excess rage by shadow boxing. But I think the mechanics were that you'd always roll the Highest of your temp/permanent rage, so there was no point in burning more than my permanent.


                V5 is not VTM

                Comment


                • The only point in dropping your temp. Rage further is if there's a predictable source of temp. Rage coming.

                  If your PC has screwed up, and knows they're in for a humiliating Moot as the Philodoxes are about to make an example of you, while the Ragabash sharpen their tongues, and you know the Galliards are working on how to turn your shame into stories to warn future generations? Drop your temp. Rage as low as you can, so it doesn't get pushed up over perm. during your time to endure your punishment. You're going to want some more room to eat up the temp. Rage you'll be getting.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post

                    Failure doesn't meen total war.

                    Yesterday I've walked a lot and tried to figure out how could all the tribe failed.

                    Generaly: Gaia isn't saved, the ecosystem is crumbling, spiececs die out day to day. Caerns loose they potency, maybe even the Fera starts to loose their spiritual Potency.
                    Less and less Garou are born, Metis is the main Breed. They are breed as needed shock-troops.
                    The Veil was shattered. The Second Inquisition started to hunt Garou.

                    Black Furies: Less and less wild placecs remain. Women are still used, abused, threw, and Wyrm uses bigotry on BOTH sides to foster hatred. They number dwindled, and had to accept men into their rank. They identity is shattered
                    Bone Gnawers: Died out. Lone survivors remain, but the tribe is no more.
                    Children of Gaia: There is no peace. The Nation is fragmented. But there were successfull. They brought back the Bunyip, or something wearing their skin. They live, breed and figh. The Third War of Rage is brewing in Australia, but now the Garou are on the loosing side.
                    Fianna: No more boose? Donno. Because of the almost forgotten ties to the Good Folk, Tallain become very intrested in them. Now they are hunted by nightmares and loose ancecstral land to them and the Spirals.
                    Get of Fenris: There is no epic war to figh. What's their purose now?
                    Glas Walkers: Technology become a weakness. Men adapted faster, now the system is used against them. The Weaver becomes stronger, the webs thicker. Some of them even started to fall.
                    Red Talons: Wolves die out. A new Impergium was started and it failed. Human technology was stronger. Drones are unaffected by the Delirium, Hellfire Missiles burns Caerns and meet. The Second Inquisition started to hunt the changers, not just vampires.
                    Silver Fangs: Heroes die. Fangs lost their power, their blood is diluted. They lost the Crown and influence. No one trusts a fallen leader.
                    Shadow Lords: Couldn't grab the power. Tried, fought, tore down the Fangs, but what they could achieve is a fragmented Nation. Tribes and Camps without guadiance and leadership.
                    Silent Striders: Could not break the Curse. Wepauvet was able to connect some Ancestors with newborns, but later other spirits, things used the connections. Nowdays the youth of the tribe is the playground of wraiths.
                    Stargazers: Tribal homeland was lost, and the Beast Court doesn't accepted them as it was expected. Now they are outcasts.
                    Uktena: Banes gets free, Storm Eater is aproaching.
                    Wendigo: The natives are constantly used, abused. More and more Kin is lost to mixed pairing and Wendigo looses it's spiritual "purity". It's getting more tainted and cannibalism is occuring in alarming frequency.

                    Bonus:

                    BSDs: Wyrm is not free, Weaver is stronger every day. The Metis population is so high that tht Tribe may die out / weaken in one generation. They are in the focus of Second Inquisition.
                    and radical war in 2020 doesn't necessary mean a all out phyical war

                    Nice suggestions about the tribes. Really similar to what I described in another thread.


                    -'' We are the unsullied.
                    We are the inheritors.
                    We are the Pure ''-

                    I'm the guy who draws werewolves.

                    Comment


                    • Here's how I'd end the tribes.

                      Bone Gnawers: Are now nominally a tribe; They have given up and act as though they are ronin, with no purpose in the war. Second, much cooler option; They join the Ratkin in war.
                      Black Furies: The tribe was never great at breeding given they deny themselves men. New feminists are turned off by the tribes hatred for trans people, whilst the mainstream sees feminism becoming 'toxic' and the tribe has become marginalized.
                      Children of Gaia: Self indulgent virtue signaling and the agressive drive to become 'PC' among neoliberal circles has completely undermined the tribe. Just as America voted trump in a backlash, so too does everyone spurn the CoG
                      Fianna- Universal harrano.
                      Get of Fenrir- Fighting their way to extinction.
                      Glass walkers- Weaver took em.
                      Silver Fangs- Inbreeding
                      Silent striders- Having lost hope of reclaiming their ancestral homelands, the silent striders disband.
                      Shadow lords- The Wyrm got to them, or the other tribes think the Wyrm has got to them.
                      Stargazers- Left for the deep umbra, never to return.
                      Red Talons: Human kin were exterminated without them noticing. As a result the tribe can no longer breed true.
                      Uktenka- Same as shadow lords
                      Wendigo- Warred with the other garou; Lost.


                      V5 is not VTM

                      Comment


                      • Above you went into a small (, but significant) part of the system. A system we know almost nothing.

                        I'd be more intrested in the story / background. If it's fine with a horrendous system it still could be played with the old one.
                        But if the system is the best, but the fluff is bad it could kill the whole gemeline.

                        I'm familiar with V5. The background was a joke. Second Inquisition? Really? Like a bad live thread went official.

                        I hope W5 will be handled better.


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post

                          I'm familiar with V5. The background was a joke. Second Inquisition? Really? Like a bad live thread went official.
                          .
                          Yeah I mean making something like.. the Masquerade matter is kind of silly. I know. I mean it shouldn't be a key feature rather than over the top blood gods being untouchable by humans.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Lian View Post

                            Yeah I mean making something like.. the Masquerade matter is kind of silly. I know. I mean it shouldn't be a key feature rather than over the top blood gods being untouchable by humans.

                            I really wish V5 fanboys wouldn't utterly misrepresent what people have said and just straight making shit up....
                            Last edited by Damian May; 01-04-2020, 03:32 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Damian May View Post


                              I really wish V5 fanboys wouldn't utterly misrepresent what people have said and just straight making shit up....

                              Right that's only for V5 haters to do.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Lian View Post


                                Right that's only for V5 haters to do.


                                Well, at least your not denying that thats what you did. As for labeling folks as haters....I think ' disappointed former fans' is probably a better description. And as I've just been made aware 'fanboys' can apparently have negative connotations so I myself should have said ' fans' instead. Apologies.

                                Fine if you disagree with someones statement, but, please, at least attack the actual things written. I will commend you on not going straight to personal attacks like a certain very vocal V5 fan on FB and reddit.
                                Last edited by Damian May; 01-05-2020, 01:53 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X