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  • #16
    [NOOQ #8]
    •I need to look those up, and adding additional Nation spirits in general will be fun as obviously more then those four deserve credit and I'm kicking myself somewhat now for forgetting India in my original post talking about Nation Spirits. Ah well, such is life.

    [Lashet #9]
    •That could certainly be an interesting alternate setting, perhaps a more high fantasy World of Light, although I worry that for the general setting it would be too drastic a change and would risk severely undermining the setting's theme of 'Sins of the Father' which is integral to many part of Werewolve's narrative. Although you may have meant that the War of Rage was not one single event but actually many instances of violence and combat that get lumped together, which I completely agree with, which is why I typically refer to it as the Wars of Rage in my setting.

    [Black Fox (BF) #10]
    •I've adopted elements of this myself, aligning it with Demon's Multi-Resonance Layered Reality to have this as essentially the first great shift of reality that locked Reality on the broad (yet slowly narrowing) yet unified track of progression that we know as our reality. I usually rule it was out of this that the first changing breeds were fully made manifest, kami becoming spiritual races.
    •Fair nuff on the first count and on the second I'm in complete agreement that essentially all tribes should be present in Asia to some degree by modern day and even before then several tribes other then the Stargazers could also be found. I've contemplated at times homebrewing tribes to further flesh out the region, but usually end up siding against it, although if WW could do it all over again I would advise adding another 2-4 tribes in East Asia. Give Mongolia one at the very least.
    •Conversely, I kinda do the opposite. While most Changing Breeds were culled during the Wars of Rage and following genocides or cosmic disasters, there do exist hidden remnants. I leave these mostly unfleshed, so that if an Indiana Jones pack wants to adventure into a lost jungle temple in Southeast Asia to discover the last Were-Monkey, the option theoretically exists. I'm also open to the concept of other changing breeds existing, although I lean towards them being mammals, amphibians or deep-sea fish.
    •I'm quite fond of those threads, excellent work on all of them. If you happen to create any more, I'd be very interested in checking them out.
    •I do it in a similar way. The Garou Nation is akin to a confederacy of vastly distributed and nominally united septs yet only the causes of elders cooperating, legends of the Nation, or the sheer political power of those who can claim the leadership of the highest alpha of the Nation (King/Queen) can truly unite them. Even then, uniting the Nation is a Herculean task that would make even many Ventrue elders weep.
    •Very Fair, I try to emulate this myself, while also focusing on the Garou as being a very communal and insular people, with elements of Folk Horror to this at times.
    •I'm similar to this. I keep real world Corporate names while adding Pentex Names for flavor, yet I very rarely will show hints of true PENTEX and keep whether or not it actually exists a mystery. I tend to use terms like Weaver/Wyrm-Corporations instead to describe such groups to those garou who bother to distinguish them from all corporations.
    •I've blatantly stolen this one already tbh.
    •That's very interesting and I'll probably look into stealing it as well, perhaps also looking at the C20 Player's Guide for its info on Banner Houses for inspiration.
    •I honestly though this was RAW. It just feels like common sense.
    •I've taken to showing this as well. There are far more independent changing breeds then either The Garou Nation or The Beast Courts would like to admit. I usually divide them into the branches of Ronin/Lone Wolves (The exiled and honorable, something of a romantic figure), Vaugr/Outlaws (Garou who abandon the Nation for whatever reason, either criminal or apathy, and are branded as cowards and anathema by the Nation for it), and Ghost Wolves (Garou who were not claimed by any totem after their rite of passage or never completed it, often avoided as bad luck)
    •While this is true, I tend to increase the numbers in my setting above the RAW ratios to reflect more realistic population growth numbers and also just because frankly it creates a setting more enjoyable for me and my group's style of play.

    [NOOW & BF 12-13]
    •I can definitely see the Conan angle. I think the revised era High Fantasy connection comes from WW downplayed certain aspects of the Nation to better support a mytho-heroic story of battle against cosmic evil, rather then the earlier narrative of a horrifically screwed up people who were still trying to save the world but seemed doomed to fail due to their own fatal flaws, akin to a Greek or Shakespearean tragedy.

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    • #17
      Re; The Fera and their relationship with the Garou

      The War of Rage is an interesting bit of lore in my opinion. It is the point where most of the Garou Nations problems arise from. When I run WtA, i like to make the Nation a bit more tragic by having them discover that they started the war over nothing and after being deceived by a breed not of Gaia but of the Weaver and thus have this pseudo "Original Sin" that hangs over their head even if there are Fera that have since forgiven them (as uncommon as that is) or feel that there is nothing to forgive (in every sense of the phrase)

      The Ajaba are a strange bunch. They claim that Gaia made them to do what The Gatou were made for, just for the African continent since "The Garou didnt want to be there". Yet the Silent Striders hail from Egypt. Which is in Africa. The Ajaba envy the Garou and wish they were Garou. The Garou think them extreme.

      Since the Ananasi were the ones who tricked the Garou into starting the War of Rage and towards the end, the Ananasi were revealed as the masterminds of the war after so many of the Changing Breeds were decimated and this is known to all. For being fooled by them in the War of Rage and laying the groundwork for the fall of the White Howlers, the Garou loathe them.

      Bastet mistrust the Garou, but understand why they did what they did. Their information helps the forces of Gaia, and with the Garou on the front lines, they may need it the most.

      The Corax. Yeah. Chatterboxes. No change between their write up and my chronicles tbh.

      The Gurahl. One of the first to fall in the War of Rage, or so the Garou thought. When the Garou discovered the Gurahl's survival, they kept their distance amd the Gurahl for the longest time were unaware of the immense guilt and shame the Nation felt post War of Rage. Afterwards, they almost all forgave the Garou. Many Garou felt they weren't worthy.

      The Kitsune have tried to guide the Garou whenever they encountered them, only to be brushed off by the Nation and thus attempt to guide them from the Shadows.

      The Mokole hold grudges. Even the young ones. The Garou know this. A Mokole who helps is a blessing, and rare.

      The Nagah are hidden, and like to keep it that way. No change

      Nuwisha (MY FAVORITE FERA), everyone's favorite trickster prankster yodas. Cant change perfection

      The Ratkin. AKA Skaven. Half fell to the Wyrm, the other become hell bent on correcting that and have taken to fighting the Wyrm even harder. The Garou are welcome to help of they wish. the Rokea are rare as hell and don't go on many Fera radar.

      The Rokea that are trying to get back in tune with the homid side of things are often aided by the Garou against the more traditionalist Rokea.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
        My Kinfolk come in a basic model (immune to delirium, a little heartier than average) and two Kinfolk+ models. The Wolfblooded are much more primal and physically dynamic, but prone to minor mutations that make them a bit more animalistic (nothing crazy, usualy heightened senses, excessive body hair, flexible joints, really hard nails or small fangs that can do minor damage, animal magnetism, better than average healing, etc.). And yes, there is a corresponding Apeblooded for wolves, making them smarter, able to comprehend human speach and symbols, and other things. The Moonstruck are kin with an unusual spiritual sensitivity and connection to Luna, usually giving them gifts of insight, visions, and sometimes psychic powers, but at the cost of mental stability sometimes to the point of Derangement. (Mokole kin have something similar called Suntouched, who tend to be charismatic warrior-heroes, but are prone to hubris.)
        YOINK! I'm stealling allllllllllll of this!!



        Sig

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        • #19
          Random Fera stuff:

          I've occasionally toyed with the idea of trimming the other shifters down to just five (Tiger, Leopard, Jaguar, Hyena, and Shark), but I generally enjoy all of them too much. Though I tend to ignore them unless I'm doing a Fera centered game or it's in an area where one or more of them are a major factor (Mokole in southern Florida, for example).

          I still have the Ceilican around, in relatively comparable numbers to the other Bastet. Like the Bubasti, they breed with feral or semi-feral cats (I've yet to find a reference to what a "Kyphur cat" is), with their Chartro form resembling the lost mane-less lions of Europe. A lot of this is just because I enjoy them so much, as they are a fun blend of old fey-cat/witch-cat legends of Celtic and Nordic Europe, the Puss in Boots story, and the various iterations of James Bond and his pastiches.

          With the Gurahl, I got rid of their tribes, replacing them with cross-species Lodges devoted to different activities (astronomy/astrology/prophecy, guarding the Sleeping Kings, healing the land, etc.), and gave them Auspices based on the seasons (Spring/Healer, Summer/Protector, Autumn/Teacher, Winter/Priest). And they still exist as part of the Beast Courts, mainly because I enjoy the Korean and Ainu bear legends so much.

          I simplified the Mokole auspices to just five - Dawn, Zenith, Twilight, Night, and Eclipse - largely for simplicity's sake, but also slightly for Exalted influence.

          I've been fiddling for a while with new Ratkin auspices based on the four classic humors, but have yet to work out all of the details.

          My Rokea have a handful of small, long established human kinfolk lines in a few places, notably Japan, Polynesia, Greece, East Africa, and the Alaskan Panhandle.

          The Nagah are so secretive that no one else knows they're still alive (though the Mokole can't remember them actually dying out), not even the Beast Courts. But they still exist in secretive pockets around the globe.

          I've also been fiddling with the idea of the Ananasi having stronger regional cultures - the Japanese Kumo, the Mediterranean Arachne, the West African Anansi, the Middle Eastern Uttu, the North American Unktoni, and so forth - but it's very much a work still in progress.



          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

          Comment


          • #20
            Honestly the War of Rage is of the most laughable aspect of WTA. There is no way the Garou could've all defeated all those Breeds. They only won because of plot-armor or the writers needed a reason to make the other shape-changers rare just 'cuz. No way their gonna wreck Gurahl, Bastet/Simba, Mokole, and the Ratkin. They gave an excuse that they only won because Garou fought in packs, but thats laughable since we know in the other breedbooks that the other Fera definitely did fight together. They didn't have so-called "solitary natures".

            You can't convince me Were-Wolves are gonna beat Were-Dinos, Were-Bears, Were-Snakes, Were-Rats (that breed at a more exceptional rate than the Garou's animal kinfolk counterpart compared to the Ratkin, with a higher chance of breeding True) or Were-LIONS.. Even at a point all the other Breeds would've made a coalition similar to the Hengeyokai Beast Courts and would've wreaked them to Oblivion. Actually it doesn't make sense that Wolves would be the chosen of Gaia. This is literally the same animal that become Dogs for humans after a few millennia of conditioning. Shouldn't a Breed more of the wild be the proctor of Gaia? If anything it should be the Gurahl or the Ratkin at this point.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
              Honestly the War of Rage is of the most laughable aspect of WTA. There is no way the Garou could've all defeated all those Breeds. They only won because of plot-armor or the writers needed a reason to make the other shape-changers rare just 'cuz. No way their gonna wreck Gurahl, Bastet/Simba, Mokole, and the Ratkin. They gave an excuse that they only won because Garou fought in packs, but thats laughable since we know in the other breedbooks that the other Fera definitely did fight together. They didn't have so-called "solitary natures".

              You can't convince me Were-Wolves are gonna beat Were-Dinos, Were-Bears, Were-Snakes, Were-Rats (that breed at a more exceptional rate than the Garou's animal kinfolk counterpart compared to the Ratkin, with a higher chance of breeding True) or Were-LIONS.. Even at a point all the other Breeds would've made a coalition similar to the Hengeyokai Beast Courts and would've wreaked them to Oblivion. Actually it doesn't make sense that Wolves would be the chosen of Gaia. This is literally the same animal that become Dogs for humans after a few millennia of conditioning. Shouldn't a Breed more of the wild be the proctor of Gaia? If anything it should be the Gurahl or the Ratkin at this point.
              I treat it as allegorical. Like there was a mass culling event, the Garou took advamtage, and thus started a long line of fuck ups. the Cardinal/Original sin so to speak.

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              • #22
                Original Sin more a Christian/Vampire theme. WTA is more about cosmic spiritualism mixed with the Fera supposed to be ever vigil Guards enacted by Gaia. Doesn't make since for the Garou to literally staved off most of the other Gaian breeds while not entirely falling to the Wyrm immediately or Gaia just outright expelling them from her patronage.. Why didn't the other Spirits who acted as overwatch for the other Breeds not try to stop the Garou or withhold services for their crime? They basically crippled Gaia's entire plan to keep balance by different aspects of it to defend the Earth. Seems like a cop-out to me that the Garou got off lightly to not being punished at all.

                Also even with that, I still don't believe the Garou would ever win a realistic "War of Rage" at all.

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                • #23
                  [NOOQ #19]
                  -I do a similar thing with the Ceilican & Nagah and those ideas with the Ratkin, Mokolé, and Rokea especially sound interesting. I'm probably going to steal those ideas for various homid lineages.

                  [Shakanaka #20]
                  -For one I've always taken it that the Wars of Rage were actually several different conflicts that get branched together for narrative simplicity both IC & OOC and took place over the millennia of changing breed pre-history. In a similar vein, the notion that the Garou were responsible for the destruction of e wry changing breed is a bit much. I usually tend to have the Bastet of South America & Southeast Asia be similarly responsible for their regional changing breed genocides, the Ajaba & Bastet of Saharan and Sub-Saharan Africa, and Australia would honestly probably be a gold mine of lost breeds. With the Corax & Camazotz likely operating as collaborators to get rid of their fellow avian breeds, the Ananasi having dealt with insectoids during pre-history along with the Rokea dealing with fish, most reptiles being either Mokolé & Nagah, and amphibians falling prey to the local mammals alongside the Mokolé & Nagah probably. This isn't to say that the Garou don't have horrific amounts of blood on their hands still, but putting it all on their hands is a bit rich.
                  -I think that when you take into consideration that the Garou were extremely numerous in their own regions and were gifted with incredible fighting capabilities with their spiritual duties and the fact that they do work together, it begins to make more sense. Most changing breeds were committed to their own duties and the garou's duty most suited them to vicious combat and they likely did have the numbers on most every breed except the Ratkin who frankly were never suited to surviving a direct confrontation with the garou.
                  -On the dogs thing... I mean, alright. I'm not sure entirely what that has to do with this. The Garou are very clearly tied with wolves instead of dogs and Bastet & Ratkin are both just as capable of becoming domesticated. The Garou likely began their history as Gaia's guardian warriors because their lupine nature's made them excellent at cooperation and the defense of territory. In the earliest times, they likely worked paw and paw with the Grondr (Were-Boars) l who rooted out the Wyrm while they drove it off as the central warriors and caern guardians.
                  -Speaking from a thematic level also, removing the War of Rage really butchers the thematic resonance of the 'Sins of the Father' element of WtA which serves as the setting's analogy for such human tragedies as colonial near-genocides of indigenous peoples, slavery, and the environment damage and corporate world that the modern generation of WtA writers and players have inherited.
                  Last edited by Gryffon15; 01-03-2020, 03:48 PM. Reason: Confused 'Gurahl' for 'Grondr', mea culpa

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                  • #24
                    Just speaking personally, I have long interpreted "War of Rage" to mean any large scale conflict between Shifters, with there having been a number of them, both in the ancient past (including the Ananasi war with the insect beings and probably events from the Mokole Dragon Kings era) and in the more recent past (the events of Werewolf the Wild West and the destruction of the Bunyip). I include my Dark Ages civil war among them, as well as a number of post DA conflicts between the Cealican/Bubasti and Ratkin which tended to coincide with both plague outbreaks and witch hysterias, and the events leading to the formation of the Ahadi.


                    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Some personal ones;

                      - Tribes of country X can differ drastically from one another, even some have unique personal beliefs. For example, the Chernobyl area Red Talons do not see human buildings/remnants as bad. There are many Red Talon groups who are similar from reclaimed areas around Europe/America/Asia.

                      -Ownership of dogs is seen as an extremely grave sin by some tribes towards the lupus breed. A garou who owns dogs can be subjected to challenges for it in rural septs.


                      My gallery.

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                      • #26
                        The Garou consider vampires to be universally Wyrmspawn because, for most of their history, they largerly interacted and warred with groups like the Settites (Silent Striders), the Tzimisce (Shadow Lords), Sabbat (Bone Gnawers), Malkavian Pentex infernalists e.t.c., who largerly are Wyrm-tainted. Not the most open-minded folks themselves in the first place, it took little convincing to paint all licks with one brush.

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                        • #27
                          More randomness:

                          My roughly outlined work-in-progress humor based Ratkin auspices,
                          • Sanguine (Blood; Hot/Wet; Spring and Air) - tending toward extreme extroversion and hyperactivity; the most social of the breed, often involved with kinfolk and interaction with those outside the nest
                          • Choleric (Gall/Yellow Bile; Hot/Dry; Summer and Fire) - tending toward extroversion and short-temperament; warriors but more the sort who stab people in the back and kick you when you are down than anything considered "honorable"
                          • Melancholic (Black Bile; Cold/Dry; Autumn and Earth) - tending toward extreme introversion and anxiety; the most intellectual of the breed, spies and plotters
                          • Phlegmatic (Phlegm; Cold/Wet; Winter and Water) - somewhat introverted and considered cold and creepy even by other Ratkin, mystics who delve into the secrets of disease, decay, and derangement
                          Rather than the continent-centered groups, I have a number of subcultures. Sea Rats (cut throat pirates and smugglers), Desert Rats (paranoid survivalist militia types), Lab Rats (mad scientists), Tunnel Rats (underground homeless in major cities), Plague Rats (doomsday cultists), and Pack Rats (obsessive collectors and thieves) being some of the major ones.

                          I prefer to have the North American native Garou have their own creationist take on their origins, believing that Gaia created them specifically to protect the Pure Lands/North America. Elder Brother out of wisdom and water to counter the schemes of the Defiler Wyrm; Middle Brother out of will and stone to resist the temptations of the Eater of Souls; and Younger Brother out of fury and the frozen wind to tear apart the Beast of War. To help them, Gaia also made the Three Sisters. The Qualmi to temper the Wendigo with wisdom and humor; the Pumonica to stand beside and keep watch over the Croatan; and the Balam to light a fire under the Uktena's ass when necessary. (The Balam and Pumonica of South America have a much more self-centric view of their purpose and origins, as there never were more than a handful of homid Ukena and Croatan there; on the other hand, they have much stronger histories with the local Mokole, Ananasi, and Gurahl. )

                          In addition to the traditional British Isles, Scandinavian/Germanic, Pacific Northwest, Japanese, African and Russian bands of Corax, I also have them in India, Australia, Siberia, and Greece/Turkey.

                          Then there are the Singh, the almost extinct Indian Simba. I also have a tiny number of Swara in Iran. There used to be Khan in Persia and the Caucuses, but they died out a century ago. My Bagheera have their most famous branches in Africa and India, but there is a third in Southwest Asia and a fourth among the Beast Courts of China and Southeast Asia (and a few rare homids still born in Korea). The last one includes snow leopards (and yes, I know they aren't the same as other leopards, but they are beautiful and awesome so shut up) who are primarily Tibetan, Nepalese and Mongolian, and tend to be more oriented toward the Umbra and even the Underworld than most Bastet (they can step sidewise like the Swara and the Goblin Shark Same-bito).


                          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                          • #28
                            I like the "Three Sisters" counterpart to the Three Brothers. I'm going to use that in my own chronicles. Very nice.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                              Some personal ones;

                              - Tribes of country X can differ drastically from one another, even some have unique personal beliefs. For example, the Chernobyl area Red Talons do not see human buildings/remnants as bad. There are many Red Talon groups who are similar from reclaimed areas around Europe/America/Asia.
                              I remember there was a documentary about 15 yrs ago looking at what would happen to the world and its infrastructure if humanity just up and disappeared one day. It'd make an interesting all lupus alternate setting I think.


                              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

                                I remember there was a documentary about 15 yrs ago looking at what would happen to the world and its infrastructure if humanity just up and disappeared one day. It'd make an interesting all lupus alternate setting I think.
                                I mean, in general I love the idea of Red Talons plain old claiming old towns/areas and making them their new homes. As a way to get back at humanity by reclaiming their things. You don't really need to make even an alternative world, just include ghost towns in it with scary wolves. To also hint that it IS possible to bring Gaia back where there was once habitation.


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