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  • Black Fox
    replied
    I share some of your sentiments about the White Howlers. It was strange that they only resided in Scotland when every other tribe occupies far larger expanses of land. And that their totem (whether you think it is the lion or the extinct cave lion) was not indigenous to Scotland. Furthermore, Scotland itself was buried under glacial ice for much of history. I don't think the land could be inhabited until about 8000 BC or so, making it impossible for Scotland to be the original home of the White Howlers.

    As a result, I've concluded that Scotland was merely the last refuge of the White Howlers. That their lands once included much of Western Europe (and probably lots of other areas, but Western Europe was the center of their might), but that they slowly lost them to the other Garou tribes until Scotland was all that was once left.

    Their white fur hearkens to that of arctic wolves, much like the Silver Fangs, who formed in the early days when the Ice Age had not yet fully retreated. And like Falcon is considered to be a king of the birds, the Lion is thought of as the king of the beasts. So combining the two, I felt the White Howlers must be an ancient tribe, and one that had pretensions of royalty. (Though we need to remember that royalty, aka sacred kings, had a much different role than the one we associate today with the word "king". Their political authority was much less, and kings would be chosen as the most worthy among a caste of others, rather than being passed down by birthright.)

    I've constructed an alternate history of the White Howlers that fits my understanding of history while keeping the essentials known.

    For the Stone Age and some of the Bronze Age, the White Howlers were an important tribe. However, they had the misfortune to select as their totem Cave Lion. Cave Lion was a mighty totem animal and made the White Howlers strong, but the animal became extinct 13,000 years ago. Therefore even though the selection of their totem animal seemed to benefit the tribe, once the animal became extinct, their tribal totem became weak and as thousands of years went by, the tribal totem became even weaker, displaying less and less power to his children. As a result, the White Howlers became fanatically about the spirits of the dead in an attempt to strengthen their bonds to their totem and give him proper chiminage. That worked for a time period, but it put the tribe into dangerous territory and eventually they began dealing with more forbidden spirits of the dead.

    Worse, some of the most important tribal caerns were in areas that were land during the Ice Age, but were flooded by the ocean as the glaciers melted. This included the original caern dedicated to the Cave Lion from which the tribe sprung as well as some of their other powerful caerns. With their destruction, the White Howlers lost power. Nevertheless, for a long time the White Howlers persevered as a mighty tribe of Garou.

    That changed during the arrival of Neolithic farmers from the Near East and later the Indo-European speaking peoples from the steppe. With these people came the kinfolk of other tribes, and the result was the destruction of much of their human kinfolk, and the replacement by their rival tribes, especially the Fianna and Get of Fenris. The White Howlers collapsed in power, and with a few generations lost most of their numbers. As a result, the tribe retreated getting even smaller and less powerful every generation. Finally, all they had left was Scotland, and for several thousand years this once great tribe was confined to a small protectorate with very few numbers. By the time of the Roman Empire, the White Howlers were essentially an endangered species kept on a reservation or wilderness preserve created by the Fianna who felt pity for these once great kings with their dead totem.

    This eventually brings us to the history we know today which culminated with the attempted Roman conquest and their betrayal and destruction of their corrupted members of the Black Spiral Dancers.

    I think that preserves the known information and keeping its inspiration in Howardiana of Bran Mak Morn.

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  • Gryffon15
    replied
    That would make sense to me aye. I've also always assumed that the pre-gaelic people's of Western Europe, Britons and so on, likely formed the foundation of the White Howler kinfolk protectorate alongside the Picts.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Something I have kept poking at the past several years is that idea the Scottish Picts weren't the entirety of the White Howlers' human kin. Mostly just because I find it slightly odd that you have these great swaths of peoples/territories - Celts, Germanics, Semitics, Slavs, etc. - for most tribes, and then just this tiny little patch for the White Howlers. It's possible that the sunken region of Doggerland was once their territory. If so, they might've included the Maglemosian culture of Northern Europe and its successors the Kongomose and Tardenosian cultures, only to have them eventual pushed out and taken over by the advancing Fianna and Fenrir.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lothlanathorian
    replied
    I am working on building a story and there's lot in here that is inspirational and may get yoinked into my chronicle. I have an issue with taking the text as gospel (which I know it isn't), so this thread has been one heck of a boon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gryffon15
    replied
    Ah, interesting stuff! The America idea is pretty cool and the Children of Gaia have needed something to vitalize them as a faction for a while given their treatment in the Revised corebook.

    Leave a comment:


  • geeklord1
    replied
    Some of my home brew setting changes are
    • The Garou are a bit more united in the United States than other places in the world and most Septs are mixed tribe septs. The Storm Eater was the flash point that drove the Garou together and while many of their tribal grievances are still there they are more subtle and insidious in America than outright hostilities.
    • The three brothers believe that each of their tribe was a representation of the original Triat. While Older and Younger brother agree that Middle brother was their version of the balance Wyrm they fight on who is the Wyld and the Weaver. Each bringing evidence that the other is the Weaver.
    • Children of Gaia are far more likely to think they should be in charge than the default setting.

    Leave a comment:


  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
    I think No One of Consequence's comment on Apis eating people is in reference to the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur.
    That is correct.

    Also, Weaponized Ink's Werewolf: The Savage Age includes that idea that the Apis were originally were-mesonychid, a prehistorical carnivorous ungulate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    I think No One of Consequence's comment on Apis eating people is in reference to the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur. Minotaur would devour the Athenian youths sent to him. I assume he is saying that Wyrm corrupted Apis all behaved like the Minotaur at some point. And since Apis are both human and bovine, it's not like they could only chew cud. Humans can eat meat so there is not reason why Apis wouldn't either.

    I would also classify the Grondr as not being based on a carnivorous animal. Boars are omnivores and do eat a variety of small (primarily burrowing) animals like worms, insects, snakes, fish, and frogs plus carrion. But most of their diet is undergrund plants plus nuts, berries, and seeds plus bark, twigs, and fungus when the others become hard to find. They're not what you think of when you hear the word carnivore. They're even toed ungulates like cattle.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    An idea I've toyed with from time to time is the idea that the various lost breeds (Apis, etc.) were not necessarily wiped out by the Garou as part of some general War of Rage, but instead each of them fell, likely to the Wyrm, but possibly to other forces, and were destroyed by all of the Fera. So, for example, the Apis start as Gaia's husbanders/matchmakers but become corrupted and start herding humans into the early Bronze Age cities and breeding more and more people in order to eat them. So the various Fera of Mesopotamia, the Indus River Valley, and the Yellow River destroy them. Eventually all you have left is the occasional thing like the Minotaur trapped in the Labyrinth (or perhaps the cult of Moloch) and the odd flesh-eating "giant".
    I like the general idea. Cows eating humans however, I find unlikely. They are, from the top of my head, the only Breed not based on a carnivorous animal (well, bears used to be carnivorous, shifted to primarily herbivorous with polar bears undergoing a secondary re-evolution towards carnivorous diets - they are omnivores according to wikipedia).

    Leave a comment:


  • evtrax
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    An idea I've toyed with from time to time is the idea that the various lost breeds (Apis, etc.) were not necessarily wiped out by the Garou as part of some general War of Rage, but instead each of them fell, likely to the Wyrm, but possibly to other forces, and were destroyed by all of the Fera. So, for example, the Apis start as Gaia's husbanders/matchmakers but become corrupted and start herding humans into the early Bronze Age cities and breeding more and more people in order to eat them. So the various Fera of Mesopotamia, the Indus River Valley, and the Yellow River destroy them. Eventually all you have left is the occasional thing like the Minotaur trapped in the Labyrinth (or perhaps the cult of Moloch) and the odd flesh-eating "giant".


    (I can also post more alternate Pentex companies if anyone wants to see them.)
    I would love more
    Pentex.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    An interesting thing about Coyote in the game, is that the spirit is not supposed to actually be a coyote spirit, but the great archetype of the Trickster one of whose aspects is Coyote. I've always had mixed feelings about that. One one hand, I understand the desire to have one Trickster figure and not duplicate things. On the other hand, it seems to me there should be an actual coyote animal spirit. And if there can be aspect of "Coyote" that is Raven, and an actual Raven spirit totem as well ( not to mention Ti Malice and Spider),then there should be an actual coyote spirit separate from Trickster/Coyote.

    I wonder if a good solution is to have Trickster be its own spirit, and the other "aspects" of him to be spirits of his Incarna Brood. That way we have individual animal and other spirits as well. They all serve Trickster, but also have their own identity. As appropriate, it is hard to know in the legends what actions were really done by Trickster or one of his brood. The pack totem Coyote would actually be Coyote, while the patron of the Nuwisha would be Trickster (taking the aspect of Coyote). The Nuwisha tend to conflate the two as one being, but they're separate spirits. Neither spirit minds that - it's a good trick.

    Something I thought I mentioned earlier, but it doesn't appear I did in this thread (it's likely in some other thread), is how I treat the Nuwisha in my chronicles. In the first edition Player's Guide, the description of the Nuwisha explicitly states that at one time they lived with the phases of the moon (had auspices), but they lost Luna's favor and ended up with only one (no moon). Because of that, the connection between wolves and coyotes, and that the Garou Nation obviously included the jackal based Silent Striders, I decided that the Nuwisha were once actual Garou until Coyote/Trickster played a trick on Luna and angered her. This probably happened in the Time Before Time before actual historical time, but it doesn't change that were "once" a Tribe of Garou. Most likely, the original "Nuwisha" were Garou (actual werewolves, not werecoyotes) who had Coyote the Animal as Totem, but that changed when the Trickster turned them into coyote and became their Patron.

    I'm probably putting way too much logic into this given the subject material, but I need things to make sense in my head.

    As such, there's always been a strong connection between the Nuwisha and the Three Brothers. They do have legends that once there were Four Brothers, but also that Nuwisha were always "Cousin". It's OK for myths to be inconsistent. There are "War of Rage" legends that treat how the Three Brothers warred against the Nuwisha, but also many stories of cooperation. Of course, the "War of Rage" concept is one the Eurasian Garou brought with them, and which they interpreted native legends of the Three Brothers with their own schema. There are plenty of stories of the Three Brothers fighting and killing Gurahl, Bastet, Mokole, and other Changing Breeds. But they weren't combined into one narrative like the Old World Garou eventually did. The Old World Garou never accepted the Nuwisha as a Garou Tribe, so it is a peculiarity of the Wendigo and Uktena now. Out of those two tribes, the Uktena are closest to the Nuwisha and more likely to treat them as a Brother, while the Wendigo have a more antagonistic relationship while still treating Coyote and his children with respect. If I have septs in the American southwest in my chronicles, a Nuwisha is often considered a member of the sept if the sept is comprised of the Pure Ones. The Nuwisha don't really consider themselves "members", but think of it as "adopting" these Garou.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gryffon15
    replied
    Something that just occurred to me but...

    There are a limited number of Nuwishu in the world Older Brother's tribe has known that for some time. That whenever a Coyote Changer perished, from their kinfolk anourtwr will certainly be born to take up the cause of being Gaia's Laughter.

    What is less certain is their precise number. The Nuwishu themselves gleefully obfuscate the answer while multiple members of Older Brother's tribe can recount tales of quests seeking out Coyote for an answer, an answer that seemed to be entirely honest and evaded all means of detecting falsehood, yet each tale suggests a different number.

    Some say 13, others 42, 100, 300, 999, or some other number entirely. All that the changing breeds know is that Coyote's Children are in deed defined by some exact quantity of spirit-souls and yet somewhat contradictorily, they are now reported all across the breadth of the globe with barely any dip in the reported activity of their American homelands.

    How is this possible? Like so many of Coyote's tricks, we may never know until it's too late to do anything about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    I think if I was to try to compile a list of examples of why urban/suburban people in the WoD and Werewolf don't wander in or through rural and wilderness areas, it would, in addition to The Texas Chainsaw Massacre (1974/2003), The Hills Have Eyes (1977/2006), and Wrong Turn (2003), also include animal films like Anaconda (1997), Frogs (1972), Grizzly (1976), Razorback (1984), and Primeval (2007); folk horror such as The Wicker Man (1973), Get Out (2017), Midsommar (2019), Children of the Corn (1984), and The Blair Witch Project (1999); and supernatural/paranatural things like The Evil Dead (1981/2013), Splinter (2008), Primal (2010), and The Ruins (2008). Also the film Duel (1971). And HP Lovecraft's The Colour Out of Space (I haven't had a chance to see the recent film version).

    In my WoD, movies like Texas Chainsaw Massacre and The Hills Have Eyes are inspired by real world activities of things like the homesteads of the Bratovitch revenant family (and occasional Fomori Family). Such inspirations may not be based on actual news/facts, but urban legends and folklore (because any real events are covered up). Because I run Camarilla games instead of Sabbat, I find I get more mileage of Sabbat elements in Werewolf than I do in Vampire. Since Sabbat packs are much more likely to leave evidence of their atrocities than Camarilla vampires, most Garou conflicts with vampires tend to be with the Sabbat (at least the nomad packs in the wilderness, since city based covens are much more likely to reach some kind of modus vivendi with the Urrah)

    Folk horror like Wicker Man and Midsommar are a big inspiration for how I present kinfolk communities of the Gaian Garou. I've recently put more thought on how Garou shape kinfolk culture and control kinfolk communities. Isolated communities from the Flock are obviously easier to control and indoctrinate into the Gaian cult. These can take all sorts of forms - isolated, conservative agricultural settlements, dissident religious groups, New Age Communes, or whatever else makes sense for the time and place. Whenever kinfolk communities exist among mundane members of the Flock, this control obviously breaks down as kinfolk are exposed to dissenting beliefs and non-kinfolk mating partners. And some of the more obvious methods of Garou control can't be done by fear the Veil will be pierced (can't risk showing young children actual Garou in their forms since they might blab to their schoolmates). So the nature of cults between tribes (especially Urrah versus everyone else) can be very different. For Pure Ones Garou, this is a lot easier since their Native American kinfolk often belong to secret societies (fictional ones inspired by real world Indian secret societies like the Hamatsa, Midewiwin, and Sin-o-pah) who have the responsibility of instructing Native American kinfolk.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    The Garou are kind of in a bind. On the one hand, they want to use fear to keep certain wilderness areas free of mankind and development. On the other hand, they want man to appreciate the beauty and importance of the wilderness and preserve it. It's the difference of Red Talons and Wendigo keeping large wilderness areas in northern Canada and Alaska pristine, and Children of Gaia kinfolk establishing a wilderness preserve or national park.

    I think that is best played out between the tribes while acknowledging geographic disparities that work in each strategy's favor.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gryffon15
    replied
    The setting of Werewolf the Apocalypse, as we all know, is Gothic-Punk and as we all know the changing breeds and their kinfolk are the champions of Gaia's cause against the Wyrm.

    Yet while they do not know the spiritual implications of what's going on in the world around them, there are people who recognize how dreary life is. That democracy seems increasingly a sham, greed strangles the word, and people numb themselves on fantasy and pills to stave off the persistent ache of the world around them.

    The Garou are the great champions and humans are fallible and many faulter in their ideals, yet some will rise up and fight...

    •Truants
    -Wanderers and bikers, this represents a sub-culture, particularly of young people who faced with the choice between lifelong debt for an education or what a lifetime of conditioning has described as drudgery and mediocrity, opted out entirely. They borrowed money for loans, bought cars and bikes, and hit the road. While many of these young rebels will likely crack and meagerly return to society, these modern nomads are strong examples for human sympathetic changing breeds to uphold as proof that humanity recognizes their woeful cosmic position. Across rest stops and motels these grifters and drifters get by however they can and already many have become contacts to several Road Wardens, Corax, Silent Striders and the like.

    •Worker's Representation Movement (WPM)
    -Obfuscating their nature however loosely to gain a momentary opportunity to bypass corporate anti-union practices alongside old and seemingly corrupt union groups, these organizations have cropped up amongst the bigbox service industries with activities to try and push employees towards consolidation and collective action and while age old union busting practices are as effective as ever, the WPM has learned to weaponize the own Machiavellian tactics and brutality into PR warfare and however slowly and steadily the groups work to force companies into positions of such unease as to create opportunities for genuine negotiation. These tactics have drawn attention, both positive and negative, from Ananasi and Glass Walkers.

    •Squatters
    -Often counted simply amongst the homeless or itterant, this sub-culture actively gathers together with the goal of de facto reclaiming land for public use. Whether it's coloies established illegally in unoccupied housing or communes established in parks; these people tend to be a mix of old-school survivalists, hardcore libertarians, Marxists, and simple back to nature types as well as posuers, cultural tourists, and the occasional true believer. While these groups are often evicted from wherever they gather, they simply relocate elsewhere and many have developed social networks to avoid legal authorities and relocate before they can be cracked down upon. These groups have gained interest particularly from Bone Gnawers, Ratkin, and the Children of Gaia as well as Uktena within the migrant groups that co-exist with the Squatters.

    Leave a comment:

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