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  • #61
    This is fascinating stuff Black Fox! I always love to see the awesome sorts of things that can come out of the in-depth exploration of concepts like what you and No One of Consequence do.

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    • #62
      The primary reason I posted it was that my thoughts are now VERY different than when I created my first campaign. And I think that applies to how many people do it. In the beginning, I would have:

      Have it based on one caern with minimal thought as to what was happening on other caerns.
      Pick a caern rating high enough (probably 3 or 4) to support a large number of Garou from all tribes.
      Give little though to kinfolk, or parentage of any Garou.
      Static NPCs with nobody dying or new Garou arriving except as plot dictates.

      And that's about it. And I (and others) can still get plenty of good RP and games from that. I think it is the basis of most people's chronicles.

      But I think it can lead to fairly generic settings. While my new method takes more work (but not too much since they're just principles of design), I think I now have more dynamic and interesting settings with various ways to distinguish them from each other.

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      • #63
        My Khan have four traditional courts, usually connected to the NW, NE, SE, and SW directions. These are in Persia and the Caspian Sea area; Northern China, Korea and Siberia; Southern China, Southeast Asia and Indonesia; and Bangladesh and India. The Persian court, sadly, is almost extinct.

        Likewise with the Bagheera, who have different subcultures in Africa, India, East Asia, and Persia, and the Swara, who have/had four subgroups, one in India, Persia and Arabia; one in Western Africa, one in northeastern Africa, and one in Southern Africa.



        What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
        Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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        • #64
          I have at times toyed with the idea that the Camazotz were just the Mesoamerican werebats, with other subsets in Eurasia, SubSaharan Africa, South Asia, East Asia, and Australia. However, I've never known enough about regional bat mythology and folklore to really develop it.


          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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          • #65
            I've honestly had similar thoughts myself to that.

            I've lowkey basically considered the Gaian skies to be divided between Corax in the northern hemisphere and Camazotz in the Southern Hemisphere with a slight difference in duties in that the Corax are freely blabber-mouths while the Camazotz are more discerning with their dissemination of information and keeping the secrets of the changing breeds specifically.

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            • #66
              I've considered that. Also the idea of the Corax being day centric and the Camazotz being night centric.


              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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              • #67
                Unlike wolves which are a single species (or if you want to include various offshoots like coyotes and jackals, are still a single genus); bats are an entire order. The equivalent for wolves is "carnivora" which includes bears, weasels, big cats, hyenas, seals, and a whole lot more! So it's like saying "werebird" without distinguishing all the different kinds of birds - a wereswan would be a lot different from a werefalcon, wereowl, or a werebluejay. So it seems to make complete sense that werebats would cover a lot of different species.

                Of course, we shouldn't be approaching this from a scientific point of view, but one from myth and animist symbolism. So I'm not sure how much benefit there is to divide bats between different regions and species. If I had to pick a single type, I'd try to limit it to the fewest number of bats that are common and found everywhere. In case it matters, this would probably be some species of the Vespertilionidae family of bats, probably the myotis genus (mouse earred bats). A nice thing about myotis is that they do cover the world, so you're not neglecting any region. The myotis genus also maps very nicely into most of the features people commonly think of when they hear "bat."

                Folklore about bats is generally negative, but not always. Some cultures do have beneficial view or bats or view it as an ambiguous trickster figure. But the bat has always been a liminal figure because it looks like a beast, but it flies like a bird; lives in caves which is a liminal space in itself, and while it is usually active at night can often be seen during liminal times like dusk and twilight. So it is a figure not in one world, but caught between two different worlds.

                I haven't given much thought to the Camazotz both because they're extinct, and because I have my own interpretation of the War of Rage that doesn't map nicely to canon.

                But I am interested in Bat as a fallen totem/Incarna, and I have a breed of fomori that includes both animal fomori (for monstrous animal bats) and human fomori (who are heavily influenced by - ok, completely stolen from - the Dresden Files Red Court Vampires). I've spent much more time developing this type of fomori than I have about the Camazotz themselves.

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                • #68
                  I think if I was going to do something like that with the werebats, I'd consider maybe having a branch from the British Isles (Cyhiraeth?) who were closely tied with the White Howlers and were betrayed by them as they became the Black Spiral Dancers, with the handful of survivors being turned into Wyrm servants. The Australian ones (Balayang?) would perhaps have been wiped out at the same time as the Bunyip. Perhaps an Egyptian/North African branch that was wiped out during the war against Set, and an Asian one (Nobusuma?) that was destroyed in the War of Shame. Not sure about Africa, India, or elsewhere.


                  What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                  Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                    But I am interested in Bat as a fallen totem/Incarna, and I have a breed of fomori that includes both animal fomori (for monstrous animal bats) and human fomori (who are heavily influenced by - ok, completely stolen from - the Dresden Files Red Court Vampires). I've spent much more time developing this type of fomori than I have about the Camazotz themselves.
                    I'd be interested in hearing more about your bat fomori.

                    And my own, admittedly minor, head canon is that werebears are not, in the Modern Nights, divided into Tribes by species, it is by the need of Gaia, that determines the Tribe of the individual Gurahl.
                    Last edited by grimjaws; 04-06-2020, 04:24 PM.


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                    • #70
                      It would be interesting if there were a number of PENTEX created fomori breeds that are effectively human/animal hybrids (binding corrupted animal spirits to humans or certain banes to animals, augmented via chemicals and other means) as forerunners to the WW20 mockery breeds. Bats, boars, squid, vipers, lizards, and weasels would all be fun to play around with in that context.


                      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by grimjaws View Post
                        I'd be interested in hearing more about your bat fomori.
                        There is not much to the bat fomori. It was more a comment on how little I've thought about the actual Camozotz (since in my chronicles they've been extinct for 6000 years or more). And as I said, it is largely stolen from the Red Court Vampires from the Dresden Files. I'm not saying its particularly original, but this is what I have.

                        While the intelligent fomori have a "home" in North America, the animal fomori can be found anywhere. And the presence of the latter provides an excuse to find the former as they seek to uncover lost sacred sites and lore.


                        HISTORY
                        When the Bat Incarna fell to the Wyrm, he divulged the secrets of his lost children. Many of the old sacred places in the former caves of the Cazamotz became corrupted. In these subterranean lairs, Banes possessed these Wyrm tainted bats creating the animal fomori called the Devilwings.

                        Devilwings are huge albino version of bats. Their bodies are the size of wolves or small calves with a huge wingspan of five meters. Any species of bat that lairs in the lost corrupted Pits once sacred to Bat are open to being possessed and transformed into these fomori. These powerful creatures were sometimes worshipped as gods by primitive man. In the late Stone and early Bronze Ages, the Garou hunted down and cleansed many of these Pits and slew their debased subterranean cultists. Proof, in their eyes, of the treachery of Bat and the justice of their earlier slayings of his Children. Now few such lairs remain in the Old World, but occasionally the monsters wake from their hibernation and terrorize the night skies around their lairs.

                        However, in the New World, some of the most powerful lairs remained outside the range of the Three Brothers. It was there in the Yucatan after thousands of years that one of the most ancient and powerful fomori, a malevolent, slavering beast ever hungry for blood, became deified and descended to his own domain in Malfeas. A debased cult had formed around this largest and most feared of the Devilwings, providing countless sacrifice lest the monster devour them all. It was in Malfeas that the once fomori transitioned into its own Incarna and created its own jagglings and gafflings while revealing itself to new human worshipers who became a new breed of fomori, the Death Bats.

                        The new Incarna taught his worshipers in dreams of secret rites ending in human sacrifice that allowed corrupted vampire bat spirits to possess them, transforming them into the first Death Bats. Now the Wyrm finally had his own parody of the once extant Gaian Camazotz.
                        Death Bats are now primarily created by lineages of Fomori families who remember the “ancient rites”. Most of these Fomori reside in the Yucatan peninsula with additional populations throughout Mexico and Central America, but emigration in the Twentieth Century has caused the breed to spread elsewhere. Many Death Bats have access to lairs of the Devilwings which they can control by their Animal Control power.

                        In the Garou Tongue, the Incarna is known as Mapwawan, the Flittering Horror. Most of the Garou's knowledge of it come from the Uktena who have long sought to destroy this fomori breed, but the Shadow Lords are increasingly becoming the breed's most steadfast foes.

                        THE BAT CULT
                        Two distinct cultic versions exist of worship of these creatures. The first is the primitive superstitious cults around the Devilwings as a totem. The Garou eradicated such worship millennia ago although there may be echoes of these superstitious beliefs in any number of local folklore. Sometimes chimares form near the old cult centers – always close by cave extrances – that could revive cult practices. A frequent sign of revived worship is the presence of carved grotesque bat idols of soapstone. Enough archaeological evidence has been found of ancient cult activity, that many anthropologists have speculated about ancient “bat cults” comparable to documented bear cults.

                        The second cult is controlled by the Devil Bats and their thralls who worship the Incarna. They deify the Incarna and through them the fomori themselves as divine figures innately superior to mortal man. This cult is usually taught to the human children of the fomori before they practice the obscene rites of human sacrifice and blood drinking that allows Bane possession and transformation into fomori. Newly created human thralls from these fomori addictive secretions are usually instructed into rudimentary worship of the fomori as divine, although many religious secrets are withheld. The eschatology of the Devil Bar cult is of an Eternal Night when their master eats the sun, ushering in a new age. The Devil Bats know of, and despise, their fellow blood drinkers, the undead Kindred, but contact is rare. In Mexico, the Devil Bats have tactical deals with the Sabbat. They consider Black Spiral Dancers to be their allies, particularly packs whose totem is Bat. They try to avoid packs with other totems.

                        FOMORI

                        Devilwings
                        Powers: Immunity to the Delerium, Armored Hide, Armored Skin, Berserker, Chamelon Coloration (Shadowwalking), Claws & Fangs, Extra Speed, Rat Head

                        Devil Bats
                        Powers: Immunity to the Delerium, Addictive Secretion* (saliva), Animal Control (bats only), Berserker, Bestial Mutation (Man-Bat – causes the Delerium), Claws & Fangs (Bestial Form only), Prolonged Life, Regeneration, Wings (Bestial Form only)

                        Taint: Addiction (feed on human blood), Brainwashed (bat cult), Special Diet (blood)

                        Addictive Secretion - The Fomori secretes saliva that contains a potent magical narcotic, which give the prey a euphoric feeling. It is highly addictive, allowing the Death Bats to control their victims rather easily. The narcotic lowers the victim's inhibitions, while simultaneously dulling the pain of their bite. Addicted humans have been shown to go to great lengths to protect their masters, and willingly provide information from the mortal community as needed.
                        Last edited by Black Fox; 04-07-2020, 08:43 PM.

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                        • #72
                          Didn't read this thread yet I will eventually consume it all.

                          But one of my Head Canons is the Rock Candy Mountains is actually referring to the Bone Gnawer Homeland circa 1800's.

                          My home games I use the Social system from Exalted 2nd ed, so I add Integrity as a talent and people have intimacies.

                          Still on the fence if I want to use defense values/Soak or they will be rolled. Well i'll have Parry and Dodge defense Values at least.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #73
                            Something that I haven't really done in my chronicles, but which I've though about inconsistently is the world of the setting increasingly has disturbing, but inexplicable events like the bird attacks in the movie The Birds (itself based on a Daphne du Maurier short story). This would be less the "animals attack genre" like Jaws and the like, and more like Fortean phenomenon. Rains of frogs, unexplained foot prints, livestock mutilations or blood loss, crop circles, strange carvings on trees, sudden swarms of insects attacking people, and the like. More towards the violent and frightening than the head scratching Forteana of our world.

                            But I want to give my PCs an indication that something is happening in the world as a kind of countdown that the Apocalypse may be imminents, or simply that the strange activities of the Wyrm is creating side effects of various kinds.

                            I've done some of these, but haven't a coherent strategy of how to do so.

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                            • #74
                              You know, that is something really interesting. I've never really thought about it before but that is something that could really work for Apocalypse both because of how well it works for itself and then the Gothic-Punk setting.

                              From animal-slasher style movies where animals and what not occur to freak events like raining frogs and other folkloric omens of the end of days or darkly auspicious circumstances.

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                              • #75
                                Some of these activities is the after effect of strange actions Garou might take. For example, the attack in the Birds might be a result of Red Talons using their powers. Other times it might be a lashing out of the Wyld. A rain of frogs is probably that. Or a rash of livestock suffering from blood lost might be the result of a nomadic Sabbat pack passing through - something the Garou would want to investigate.

                                So I think these kind of events have Storytelling potential. And in general, the World of Darkness should have lots of them. I've just done a bad job of really incorporating them into my chronicles.

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