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How come Gaia never punished the Garou for the War of Rage?

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  • How come Gaia never punished the Garou for the War of Rage?

    Does she play favorites?


    Jade Kingdom Warrior

  • #2
    Well, how do we know that she didn't?

    Also, honestly, the garou are reaping what they're sowing already. The garou are being punished for the war of rage in the same way that humans are being punished by the earth for driving plenty of animals into extinction that disturb their ecosystems.

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    • #3
      I don't really see the Garou being punished directly by Gaia at all. It's mostly as you said Humans who are letting the Wyrm and the Weaver flourish. But I never seen anything wrong happen to the Garou. Also the other Fera in the other continents who never experienced the War of Rage like the Garou instigated are abated by the Wyrm just as much, despite being at full numbers of equal distributed Breeds.


      Jade Kingdom Warrior

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      • #4
        I tend to view Harano as Gaia's punishment.


        Open the gates of Hell: Random Demon Generator.

        Shapeshifting Historian
        Freelancer - Shattered Dreams, Dark Eras Companion - Forsaken by Rome

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        • #5
          I mean she didn't replace any of the breeds so in a way thats punishment enough


          You've been playing around the magic that is black
          But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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          • #6
            The Garou, in many respects, are the authors of their own suffering. Thus the central nature of the 'Sins of the Father' theme.

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            • #7
              Gaia is kind of in a shit situation. Assuming she can/would directly interfere, if she smacks the Garou down too hard, then she's out of the majority of her servants on the mortal plane.

              The books also generally suggest that (at least through Gaia's Avatars and so on) that Gaia isn't really that into punishing her children despite their sins (which raises some questions about certain splats), and wants to guide them to be better instead.

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              • #8
                This is one of the points covered in a broad, shotgun essay in the 2nd edition player's guide. Essentially, it's as Dwight and Gryffon15 mentioned - the consequences are the punishment. Every bad move has had terrible consequences. None of them have served up a cosmic slap on the wrist; as Heavy Arms notes, that doesn't seem to be the way that Gaia operates. Even the Nagah only come into situations if the penal systems of the parent Khurah have failed to bring the offender to justice.

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                • #9
                  The question assumes that "Gaia" is a personal force that actively directs and takes action. There is little evidence that is so despite some mythological tales that treat her like a person taking actions. Garou can barely communicate with the Incarna much less the Celestines and Gaia. Gaia certainly exists, but what exactly that means is up for a lot of debate.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                    The question assumes that "Gaia" is a personal force that actively directs and takes action. There is little evidence that is so despite some mythological tales that treat her like a person taking actions. Garou can barely communicate with the Incarna much less the Celestines and Gaia. Gaia certainly exists, but what exactly that means is up for a lot of debate.
                    True.

                    Besides that, while I haven't read 'Shattered Dreams' and other post-W20 War of Rage stuff, I always had my problems with the War of Rage. As a constructed history that serves to set-up a setting it is understandable, but like many aspects of the 1st Edition it wasn't that worked out in the beginning. If one reads about the War of Rage from the perspective of the garou today, the garou of old are seemingly all ignorant, stupid, prejudice and so on... Yet, the garou still honour their ancestors.

                    However, there is the one tale about the start of the War. A mane named "Bubasti" killed an Silverfang garou heir on a diplomatic mission. The body is brought to the Gurahl, which is also the place where the murder hides. Once spotted, the Silverfang second-in-command falls into a frenzy and the mayhem starts. Sure, the story is later expended upon in Nagah Breedbook (and according to that story the whole War might be something the Nagah should be punished for) but it all doesn't really fit together with the extinction of the Apis and Gondr, the supposed giant crusade the Ananasi trick the garou into making to free their queen, and garou crusades against the Nagah all the way to India. Was there even an India back then ? I mean, had the sub-continent already reconnected with the Asian landmass ?

                    Whatever?
                    The globally ridiculed CoG TB revised mentioned that the CoG blamed themselves for the war of Rage, always trying to negotiate between the more traditional garou and the changing breed, every meeting, every truce, every carefully groomed relationship eventually being destroyed by a frenzy of one side or the other - not realising that possibly a big happy changing breed family wasn't the natural order and shouldn't happen in that era.
                    I find that idea quite good.

                    For me, the War of Rage makes sense as an era, in which the garou policed their territories and killed whoever they deemed killing was justified (no big change there, since then). And therefore tales of them killing members of other breeds started to circulate and surely there was disagreement about this killings, with innocents getting in the way and collateral damage. All that created an atmosphere of distrust, lasting for centuries and possibly even remaining today.

                    That certain breeds got extinct in that era is true, but I'd consider that more an side-effect of the situation then the actual goal of the conflict. I also find coordinated crusades of garou of multiple tribes over vast distances to be unbeleivable. Garou back then should life in their respective territories and protect them and cull the herd and what not. That packs leave and travel beyond the territory of their sept and maybe even their tribe surely happened but long lasting war efforts - I think not. Also, the garou tribes are supposed to be fighting amongst themselves, too.

                    So, in a climate of distrust and amongst people who can fall into frenzies in basically any situation that is a little stressful I can see a "War of Rage" era, leading to the current status quo - while still concede that the majority of participants were reasonable and honourable people.


                    Also, being ticked or misguided are already the themes of the War of Tears and War of Shame. Repeating the same theme within the fictional history of the garou seems dull to me, although it underlines that those who don't know their past are doomed to repeat it...

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                    • #11
                      Gaia hasn't been shown to take an active hand and act directly. The closest to this is the creation of a new Changing Breed, and even this usually uses go betweens in the form of Celestines working with Incarna.

                      But basically they are what they are, they are creatures of Rage. The Wars of Rage was a sin but well they made angry supersoldiers and released them into the world as a last ditch attempt to stop Cosmic Cancer.

                      But perhaps Gaia did take a step to punish them, I mean the Kitsune still are waiting to discover their purpose.

                      And remember the Wars of Rage were not purely on the Garou. The Naga's whole society changed to make up for the fact that one of their old Heroes became their greatest Sin and literally sold out the world to the Wyrm and framed some Garou-Gurahl conflict. And Simba and Ajaba have been warring and just recently over the last lifetime the Simba nearly genocided the Ajaba who were before the rightful rulers of their territory.

                      The Rokea Genocide Homid members of their species, if they aren't Same-Bito. And the War of Shame had the entire Beast Court acting foolish.

                      Nobody's hands are clean here, well except the Gurahl they sure are swell.



                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #12
                        OF course gaia punished them. That's why they have to live with the Garou nation.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                          Nobody's hands are clean here, well except the Gurahl they sure are swell.
                          Not from the Garou's POV. They could have resurrected the garou who was murdered back then by the Nagah claiming to be Bubasti, or something like that.

                          Besides that: How can it be just to punish the Garou as a people for deeds of individuals?
                          If the CoG TB rev is correct, than it is just the way it was and it was supposed to happen - because back then the world wasn't designed or destined for the fera to work together or live peacefully. The world has since changed though. With the rise of humanity, homid born fera increased. With the Age of Enlightenment the worth of a single (sentient) Life, Tolerance and stuff like that became a thing, which since then has been introduced to the fera by their homid breeds. So, now there is the possibility, that co-existence or even alliances last.

                          Of course, this idea as exceptions, when it comes to the Beast Courts, or Silent Strider / Bastet / Mummy / Mokole alliances in ancient Egypt.

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                          • #14
                            Yeah it was joke about the Gurahl thing, I know the Silver Fangs weren't a fan.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #15
                              Seeing how the world has gone right into the toilet ever since the Garou wiped out the Grondr and Apis, and most of the Gurahl and Camazotz and Eurasian Bastet, and drove the Ratkin into exile, I'd say that yes Gaia did intend them to all exist together on the same planet and that she needed all of them at least tolerating each other for the world to stay healthy.

                              I'm sure it wasn't only the Garou making aggressive actions - Ajaba and Bastet and Grondr were probably guilty of atrocities themselves. But I have no trouble imagining a group of Rage-prone, Frenzy-prone, racist, pack-minded people deciding to take over the world and killing everyone who won't bow down and be their bitches. Just look at how many modern Garou are depicted as still thinking all Fera are Wyrm servants and need to die. That they fought each other while doing it isn't that different from the way the Europeans fought each other in their race to conquer the Americas, South and Southeast Asia, and Africa. We still managed to collectively commit a massive number of genocides, with those Europeans who objected not able to make much difference. Why? Because land is money. Or land is caerns. And if you're a social creature and your society uses aggressive dominance challenges to establish hierarchy...


                              In 2nd Edition, Bastet mentions that Luna sent Swara messengers to urge the Simba and other Bastet to end their part in the War of Rage. So Luna, at least, tried to persuade them to stop adding stupidity-fuel to the fire. Also, there's that entire Silver Fang House who vanished off the face of Gaia during the War of Rage... it isn't hard to guess what offense they committed.

                              So I have a headcanon story. Kind of a fairy tale itself, but I think it's plausible. Gaia and the spirits also attempted to dissuade Garou from the War of Rage. This is what happened:
                              • Gaia and Luna sent spirits to negotiate peace. The Garou did not want peace, save a few individuals. The Fera had seen far too many false parleys become ambushes and massacres. The War continued unabated.
                              • So Gaia destroyed the Silver Fang house who started the War, down to the last cub. Their Kinfolk no longer carried the Changing spirit.
                              • Gaia and Luna sent spirit messengers commanding the Garou to stop, and warning them of the consequences of the war, for Gaia and for the Silver Fangs. Some reconsidered. But most Garou wanted to rule all lands without sharing, and declared the messengers corrupted by the Wyrm and co-opted by the Fera.
                              • The Silver Fangs turned away from Luna. The War continued. So Luna cursed all the Silver Fangs with lunacy.
                              • Wolf sent his avatars to speak to the tribes, telling them they must end the genocidal slaughter at once. A few tribes and packs listened and backed down, but most refused. They accused Wolf’s avatars of being imposters, or fallen to the Wyrm. Some even slew the spirit messengers.
                              • So Wolf, acting alone or on Gaia and Luna’s orders, abandoned all Garou tribes. They lost access to their Breed Homeland. Most Garou assumed that the Wolf totem had been attacked by the Wyrm, and/or spirits of the Fera. The Red Talons made up their self-congratulatory myth that Wolf rejected all other tribes in favor of them alone, and then “had” to leave them to avoid obvious favoritism.
                              • Still the majority of Garou would not stop the slaughter, and those who did stop did not regain Wolf’s favor. Instead, the tribes sought caern totems willing to become tribal totems and build Umbral tribal homelands. This only reinforced their foolish separation from each other and raised their racist arrogance to new heights. Most of the incarnae willing to sponsor whole werewolf tribes supported the Wars of Rage. A few did not. But two tribes gained the patronage of [Cave] Lion and Turtle, in exchange for promising to spare their new totems’ children, shoring up those spirits as their true children perished. The White Howlers moved far north and stopped killing Bastet, but often still slew the other Fera when they could. The Croatan stopped killing Mokolé and eventually abandoned the War of Rage as a whole.
                              • Most of the new tribal totems and their broods of spirits continue to help murdererous Wolves, attending their Rites and empowering their Gifts, no matter how many Fera they massacre.

                              This is also my answer to why Garou, alone, do not follow the patronage of their animal totem/creator spirit, and why many of the tribal totems they do have don't seem interested in dissuading new generations from continuing the genocide.


                              I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                              Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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