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How come Gaia never punished the Garou for the War of Rage?

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  • #31
    It's pretty textual that the races slaughtered by the Garou had an irreplaceable role in the Gaian spiritual ecosystem, I think. Without the Apis, the Garou numbers are a tiny fraction of what they were. Without the Grondr, there's no way to reclaim the ground lost to the Wyrm.

    Arguably, the Garou are fighting a war that they've already lost millennia ago. Maybe that's Gaia's punishment.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by kalinara View Post
      Arguably, the Garou are fighting a war that they've already lost millennia ago. Maybe that's Gaia's punishment.
      Maybe the War of Rage had claimed their failure,

      Not the Fall of White Holwers

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Aleph View Post
        I was under the impression that, regardless of the IOC justifications of the Genosides (aren't the justifications within the mentioned Tribebooks just that?), the OOC Lore agrees that Garou killing so many of the other Fera was bad. Both moraly and in a practical sense.
        Originally posted by kalinara View Post
        It's pretty textual that the races slaughtered by the Garou had an irreplaceable role in the Gaian spiritual ecosystem, I think. Without the Apis, the Garou numbers are a tiny fraction of what they were. Without the Grondr, there's no way to reclaim the ground lost to the Wyrm.
        I agree with both of these. I'm arguing against changing the story to make the Fera the bad guys who deserved to be killed, because of what that would unintentionally say about genocide in general. Were they flawed and capable of bad things? Yes, of course. Should they be rewritten to be BSD-levels of awful, to the degree necessary to actually justify killing them all down to the last infant and egg? No, because they canonically don't serve the Wyrm. And genocide isn't even justifiable against BSD-born infants.

        And I'm arguing against the suggestion that the Garou could totally have replaced the Gurahl, Grondr, Apis, Ratkin, Camazotz, Mokole, etc. if they had wanted to, or that Gaia intended the Wars of Rage to happen, because it just doesn't make sense with the results in-setting.

        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        What I have seen from Breedbooks, and from other sources summarizing attitudes, is that most of the tribes justify the War of Rage because the Fera "turned away from Gaia" or "fell to the Wyrm" or "didn't accept the Garou as their rulers". These are the same justifications the Amandu'o Simba had for genocide of the Ajaba. In Rage Across Australia, the Red Talons still congratulate themselves for killing all the Bunyip.
        (granted, RA Australia isn't considered a good sourcebook). The Garou also repeated the slaughter in the Americas and Australia, and when they came to save the Amazon step 1. was attacking the Balam and stealing their Den-Realms. I have seen in books (unfortunately can't remember which) Garou characters stating unequivocally that the Gurahl, Mokole, and Grondr had to be wiped out because they all served the Wyrm.

        Yeah, some individuals in some tribes admit that it was wrong. I always got the impression they were the minority in most tribes.
        Last edited by Erinys; 08-08-2020, 01:35 AM.


        I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
        Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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        • #34
          To me, it always felt like the one genocide W:tA won't fully reject outright is of humans, by Fera. Humans killing humans? Bad. But something like the Red Talons or Ratkin... maybe they have a point. At least that's how it felt like when I read it.

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          • #35
            Well it’s all bad, many commentators point out that a killing on such scale would likely feed the Wyrm to well past a point of event horizon, what those breeds that advocate mass slaughter of humans argue is that - if it doesn’t lead to the Apocalypse - it permanently halts man-made artificial damage and puts the changing breeds on good footing to begin rolling back the clock.

            As far as the general question of Gaia’s Punishment though, I still lean towards the notion that the lion’s share of the punishment, if not its entirety, is simply the consequences of the Garou (and other Changing Breed’s actions). What more could Gaia honestly do? The consequences of the slaughter of the Apis, Grondr, Canazotz, and other lost breeds is obvious and depending on the ST/writer the Apocalypse has been guaranteed ever since those tragedies.

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            • #36
              The Garou are bad
              The Bastet are bad
              The Rokea are bad
              The Ratkin are bad
              The Grondr are bad
              The Guhral are bad (maybe not as-bad)
              The Corax, whilst not aggressive, are temptable mercenaries.
              The mokole mostly kept out of it
              The Apis were probably pretty reasonable, which was why they got wiped the hardest.

              The thing with the Garou is that they were the most successful. They outnumbered everyone but the Ratkin but the rat crinos isn't even half the size. If the Bastet were all lions, maybe we'd be playing Werecat: The apocalypse and they'd be the criminals of the war of rage.


              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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              • #37
                Looking at things from a Watsonian angle, a lot of people over the years have pointed out that logistically the Garou couldn’t have been the sole perpetrators of the War of Rage, which I person refer to as the ‘Wars of Rage’ because I think the canonical term is a bit of a misnomer as compared to what probably actually happened. But then again this is head canon so, grain of salt.

                The Garou have certainly screwed thongs up massively and they rightfully have their hands dirty, but it would be a mistake to consider them solely responsible. I say this not to let them off for anything, their actions were easily condemnable, but not to let anyone else off the hook.

                The Garou can roam predominantly within the northern hemisphere and the largest concentrations of tribes reflect that with their presence in Eurasia and North America. Even occasionally delving further afield, we can assume that Garou didn’t go where they didn’t have both varieties of their kinfolk for extended periods.

                So Garou slaughtering Ananasi, Ajaba, Apis, Bastet, Grondr, Gurahl, Mokole, Nagah, Ratkin, & the other list breeds; across North & Central America, Eurasia, and North Africa makes a lot of sense. Conflicts over territory, feeding rights, ideology, superiority, human kinfolk; etc. However the Garou aren’t everywhere and if the claims that once there were changing breeds for every variety of creature are true then the Garou can’t be justly held accountable for every extinction.

                Odds are that the Ajaba, Bastet, Rokea, and Ananasi all did no little amount of work themselves; with the other breeds probably helping directly or indirectly. We know from the Ananasi’s own words that they participated in the destruction of the Insect Breeds during their early conflicts with the Weaver. In South America and (Sub-)Saharan Africa it was likely a combination of Ajaba and Bastet. The Bastet themselves along with some help from the other Hengeyokai could likely have handled East and South-East Asia. There doesn’t seem to be many changing breeds native to Australia other then the Were-Thyrasines, so there’s that (although I can also see some Ananasi, Camazotz, and Ratkin doing well there). The Rokea are the only aquatic breed, except for certain Nagah and Mokolé. I think that one explains itself honestly. I doubt the Corax or Camazotz actively killed off their fellow avian breeds, but I wouldn’t be surprised either if they helped facilitate things through alliances with breeds like the Garou and Bastet.

                Anyway, I suppose my ultimate point is that the World of Darkness we have exists as a consequence of earlier people’s actions, much like our own world.

                The Garou should be held accountable to that but in all fairness it’s unreasonable to claim that they were the sole perpetrators.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Erinys View Post
                  I am very strongly NOT interested in fiction that depicts the self-justifications of genocidal armies as somehow legitimate or true.
                  I see.
                  But when has the garou population ever been an army?
                  I have only once read of a coordinated attack against the Nagah, in a campaign-like effort. And, honestly, I think the author just wanted to draw from the imagery surrounding the St. Patrick legend about the banishment of snakes from Ireland.

                  Also, 1st Edition tribes books don't go into detail on the Fera to much, and the Fera aren't really that developed there. Revised Edition has a more diverse outlook on the Fera and how garou should act when encountering them.

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