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  • Locations of Fera during the War of Rage

    What Fera and Garou lived in;
    Egypt
    Greece
    Turkey
    The Middle East
    North Africa
    Eastern Europe
    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 04-03-2020, 05:38 AM.


    I play...
    Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
    Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

  • #2
    ...that covers all of them except the Australia and south American specific ones...

    And the War of Rage is a broad swath of time, some even argued it didn't end as the Camzotz were genocided in recent history. And other things happened during it. Like the lands of Khem were the Silent Striders dwelled they couldn't really enforce the War of Rage because they were outnumbered as Wolves were few and Crocodiles and Lions and Hyenas were many.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #3
      Okay, so Egypt had Silent Striders, Were-Crocodiles (Mokole?), Were-Hyenas (Abuja?) and Were-Lions (Simba?). And I think maybe Were-Cats (Bubasti?).

      What about the other places I mentioned?


      I play...
      Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
      Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

      Comment


      • #4
        Easiest way is to do some research into the historical ranges of the animals each breed is based on. If you do that, you'll answer most of your questions. Wikipedia is an easy resource - just look up each animal species of the Fera you are interested in and look for the range map. The few you can't find there, you should be able to find using your favorite Search Engine.

        For some animals, it may be hard to find a historical range map. Rats, for example, were once restricted to Southeast Asia, but are now almost everywhere. Many of the places they now exist in, would not have been present during the War of Rage. So you'll need to use your judgment.

        The sourcebooks, in general, do a terrible job in any kind of historical sense or real world animal research. So you can more or less construct your own timeline or events of the War of Rage and extrapolate anything you need. You'll likely not contradict canon in doing so.

        One of the things you'll find when you look at the maps though, is see that wolves are absent from the territory of some the Changing Breeds that "lost" the War of Rage or became Extinct. So the idea that it was the Garou that exterminated them is hard to support.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
          Okay, so Egypt had Silent Striders, Were-Crocodiles (Mokole?), Were-Hyenas (Abuja?) and Were-Lions (Simba?). And I think maybe Were-Cats (Bubasti?).

          What about the other places I mentioned?
          The Bonegnawers were also there, they had a lesser curse called the curse of the Jackal placed on them during the wars with Set. But Corax where everywhere, Nagah too. Ratkin situation is weird because the species of Rat wasn't as prevalent millenia ago but maybe they were mice back then, but they would be in cities. Bubasti and Bagheera were there. Anansi were there in secret just like the Nagah. In World of Darkness Lore supposedly ancient Khem suffered sever desertification due to the War between Sutekh and the Osirean League.

          Not in Great number but the Gurahl Tribe, I think they were River Guardians, would have had some representative likely at least attending to the Nile. But the Garou wouldn't have been able to enforce a War of Rage in such an Environment. Later it fell to Ajaba and Simba in fighting. And the Mokole were probably the ones to suffer occasional raids of Garou brazen enough to cull the Wyrm of the Nile.

          Even the Coyote in the form of the Totem Ptah had some Nuwisha who wandered the Earth there sometimes. Seems odd to me with the Nuwisha being almost entirely presented as Native America but they were said to wander the Earth and Spirit World and had a huge penchant for siring bastards. So they would likely be a foreigner but with tricks to blend in.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
            Easiest way is to do some research into the historical ranges of the animals each breed is based on. If you do that, you'll answer most of your questions. Wikipedia is an easy resource - just look up each animal species of the Fera you are interested in and look for the range map. The few you can't find there, you should be able to find using your favorite Search Engine.

            For some animals, it may be hard to find a historical range map. Rats, for example, were once restricted to Southeast Asia, but are now almost everywhere. Many of the places they now exist in, would not have been present during the War of Rage. So you'll need to use your judgment.

            The sourcebooks, in general, do a terrible job in any kind of historical sense or real world animal research. So you can more or less construct your own timeline or events of the War of Rage and extrapolate anything you need. You'll likely not contradict canon in doing so.

            One of the things you'll find when you look at the maps though, is see that wolves are absent from the territory of some the Changing Breeds that "lost" the War of Rage or became Extinct. So the idea that it was the Garou that exterminated them is hard to support.
            It's less that I don't know what animals live(d) where, and more that I'm not very familiar with Werewolf fluff, especially more obscure stuff like Fera.


            I play...
            Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
            Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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            • #7
              Would one consider the Simba va Ajaba to be part of the War of Rage, or must that specifically be Garou vs other breeds?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by EvilTyger View Post
                Would one consider the Simba va Ajaba to be part of the War of Rage, or must that specifically be Garou vs other breeds?
                Technically its Garou vs other Breeds. We also have the Hengeyokai War of Shame and Garou on Garou War of Tears.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  And other things happened during it. Like the lands of Khem were the Silent Striders dwelled they couldn't really enforce the War of Rage because they were outnumbered as Wolves were few and Crocodiles and Lions and Hyenas were many.
                  Why do you say "enforce" ?
                  Was there a garou wide edict to wage war on the Fera I never read about?

                  I mean, sure, some writer took the St. Patrick legend and descided that the garou, despite their tribal differences, had a campaign agaist the Nagah.


                  It's not like every Garou killed every Fera on sight in these days. You mentioned the Osirian league that is clearly different and the CoGs tried to broker deals between Fera and Garou, so they did talk to them. Fianna and Get both had dealings with Corax seemingley even back then.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by EvilTyger View Post
                    Would one consider the Simba va Ajaba to be part of the War of Rage, or must that specifically be Garou vs other breeds?
                    I didn't ask about non-Egyptian Africa, because my game isn't set there.

                    Essentially, I just want to know what Fera my PCs might meet in different places if they go on a spirit quest back in time to the War of Rage, in Eastern Europe, Greece, the Middle East and Egypt (but Eldagusto has described Egypt well). Who are the Garou going to be fighting?
                    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 04-03-2020, 05:39 AM.


                    I play...
                    Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                    Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, to more on topic..

                      The White Howlers followed Lion in a time when lions did, in fact, roam much of Europe. (And fell to the Wyrm about the time they were wiped out.)

                      There were stories about Cheetahs being domesticated around the Middle East and used for hunting.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                        Why do you say "enforce" ?
                        Was there a garou wide edict to wage war on the Fera I never read about?

                        I mean, sure, some writer took the St. Patrick legend and descided that the garou, despite their tribal differences, had a campaign agaist the Nagah.


                        It's not like every Garou killed every Fera on sight in these days. You mentioned the Osirian league that is clearly different and the CoGs tried to broker deals between Fera and Garou, so they did talk to them. Fianna and Get both had dealings with Corax seemingley even back then.
                        Well Silver Fangs I got the impression did issue such edicts. We know when they did that for instance Fenrir, Fianna and I think even the Shadowlords defended the Corax. And they smashed Mokole Clutches all over the place, and even the Pure Ones weren't the best neighbors to their Fera.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #13
                          Ooh, I've researched this (not just on Wikipedia, I swear). I can help!

                          Alright, so the Wars of Rage were a long-ish time period, and books aren't in agreement as to when they started. I imagine them starting in the late Ice Age, when sabretooths and cave lions and American cheetahs and Eurasian spotted hyenas all suddenly got wiped out.... but the fighting kept going for who knows how long.

                          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                          I didn't ask about non-Egyptian Africa, because my game isn't set there.

                          Essentially, I just want to know what Fera my PCs might meet in different places if they go on a spirit quest back in time to the War of Rage, in Eastern Europe, Greece, the Middle East and Egypt (but Eldagusto has described Egypt well). Who are the Garou going to be fighting?
                          The book Shattered Dreams might be about this sort of time travel, actually. Not sure.

                          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                          What Fera and Garou lived in;
                          Egypt
                          Greece
                          Turkey
                          The Middle East
                          North Africa
                          Eastern Europe
                          So in those places...
                          keep in mind when I say "Eurasia" that I'm ignoring the parts covered in glaciers and/or polar desert at various times. Also, assume "Middle-East" includes Turkey and Arabia unless I list those countries separately.

                          There is a really neat series of Ice Age biome maps here: http://web.archive.org/web/201605281.../qen/nerc.html, which also talks about the stadial (cold) and interstadial (less cold) periods near the end of the Ice Age. Basically, the Last Glacial Maximum (the last time the glaciers spread to their largest extent) was around 28 thousand years ago, and most of Eurasia was steppe-tundra grassland. The ice started retreating, there was an interstadial with some minor climate wobbles and spreading taiga, and then the melting glaciers shut down the North Atlantic ocean circulation. That caused the Younger Dryas period: for 1000 years the Eurasian glaciers and grasslands came back. But Earth kept warming up so those glaciers melted too, and the Eurasian forests came back even stronger. The sea levels rose for a while and leveled off (until recently) around 6000 BCE. The world got to be slightly warmer (but wetter) than it is today, then started slowly cooling off until the Industrial Revolution.

                          North Africa was very much a desert during the Ice Age, and started turning into a green grassland with various lakes about the middle of the interstadial. Around 6000-4200 BCE (roughly) the Sahara switched back to desert and those lakes dried up, forcing a lot of human tribes into the Nile Valley and Faiyoum... but I guess that part happened differently in the WoD. For the real world, you can read more starting from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Sahara. Also, North Africa had f**king gigantic water buffalo with absurd horns. Just absurd. They lasted until 4000 years ago, according to Wikipedia. Not werebeasts in canon, just giant killer buffalo.

                          If your characters are going back to Neanderthal times, that's at least 40 thousand years ago, before the Last Glacial Maximum. In that case there will also be scimitar-tooth cats, cave bears, leopards, and maybe dholes and/or snow leopards in East Europe.

                          Ajaba: Cave hyenas (very large spotted hyenas) were a grassland species, all over southern Eurasia in the Ice Age, at least until around the middle of the last interstadial. In easternmost Europe, they disappeared after the Last Glacial Maximum. In Greece, the Balkans, and the Middle-East they survived until the Younger Dryas ended. The smaller spotted hyenas of Africa aren't present in your game area at all, not even in Egypt. I am not as familiar with early Holocene North Africa as I am with Europe, though.
                          Ananasi: Spiders are everywhere. See the Sidereals index.
                          Apis: Aurochs were shoved a bit southwards in East Europe during the Last Glacial Maximum and maybe during the Younger Dryas, but made a comeback in the interstadial and after the Ice Age ended. They were always present in Greece, the Balkans, Middle-East, and North Africa. Here is a good map of their Holocene range: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auroch...genius_map.jpg, although apparently they didn't inhabit the Caucasus.
                          Bastet:
                          Bagheera: Southern Europe had leopards during the Ice Age, but they began dying out in some of their range European before the Ice Age ended. They started spready back into the Balkans after the Last Glacial Maximum. They survived in Greece, the Balkans, and Ukraine until the Roman Empire times. They've continued in North Africa, Turkey, and the whole Middle East. Snow leopards were more widespread than now, until then end of the Ice Age, and even got as far west as Syria and eastern Turkey.
                          Bubasti: They bred with a fictional cat (the kyphur) that was driven extinct by the time of Egypt's New Kingdom. They certainly lived in Egypt, but I think it would be weird if they weren't present in Nubia and in other parts of North Africa. Originally they were probably brownish or golden with stripes and/or spots, but later became all black and emaciated-looking.
                          Ceilican: This depends entirely on what species they are. They can't be both wildcats and maneless lions, so it's best to pick just one. The unofficial Ceilican Revised makes them the descendants of European lions who got trounced by Garou, made a bad deal with the fae, and got their last remaining animal kin mutated into weirdos. CB20 seems to use a large European wildcat for their animal. I have at times contemplated making them Eurasian lynxes. European wildcats were until recently all over Europe and Anatolia. But they are a forest species and were probably comparatively rare in the Ice Age. For lynx and lions, see Qualmi and Simba.
                          Khan: Tigers seem to have arrived in Turkey, the Caucasus, and the northern Middle-East only after the Ice Age ended, maybe as late as 8500 or 8000 BCE (very rough g. Humans killed off the Caspian tiger only recently.
                          Khara: Homotherium, the scimitar-cat, was the only sabretooth in Eurasia at the time. They died off in the Late Pleistocene, after the first Homo sapiens settled in Europe but well before the end of the Ice Age. It appears that they lasted until the Last Glacial Maximum in west Europe, but they were so rare that the fossil record may be especially incomplete for them, so they might have survived right until the Younger Dryas.
                          Qualmi: There were extra-large pardel lynxes in much of Europe's Ice Age steppe-tundra, but fewer of the northern lynx which prefer taiga. When the Ice Age ended, the pardel lynxes shrank to bobcat size and retreated to Iberia, which retained the grasslands and had the only rabbits. The northern lynx spread with the post-Ice Age taiga forests, even into Greece and the Balkans, but not into Asia south of the Caucasus. In Werewolf, the Eurasian werelynxes were all killed in some period of time during the Wars of Rage.
                          Simba: The extant species of lion lives in North Africa, South Asia, and the Middle-East until quite recently. The Ice Age European and Asian steppes had gigantic cave lions who died out during that last interstadial before the Younger Dryas, presumably due to a War of Rage against multiple other Changing-Breeds plus their prey species largely going extinct. The Afro-Asian lions then spread into southern and central Europe and as far as England. Then humans (or werewolves) killed them off, too: In your game region they were gone from Greece c. 1000 BCE and from Macedonia and Thrace during the time of the Roman Empire. They lasted in Thessaly, the Middle-East, and North Africa even longer. I don't know how long lions survived in Ukraine and Belarus -- at least until c. 4000 BCE.
                          Swara: Cheetahs until recently lived in North Africa and the whole Middle East. Until around the last interstadial of the Ice Age, cheetahs also lived in south and east Europe. I imagine Swara were there too, getting kicked around by the Simba and Ajaba and the Garou and Khara.
                          Camazotz: I don't know if they lived in Europe in canon. European bats are all pretty small. I imagine them breeding with African yellow-winged bats, but I haven't researched their distribution yet. Sorry.
                          Corax: Ravens lived throughout Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. But they weren't all the same species.
                          Garou: Actually, North African and East African golden "jackals" and Egyptian "grey" wolves are a species called golden wolves (Canis anthous). I assume the Silent Striders and Bone Gnawers bred with them back then, and still do, even if they are smaller than grey wolves (No, there's no sensible reason for Silent Striders to have black fur, it's anti-camouflage in a desert. Maybe Sutekh cursed them to look implausible.) The Children of Gaia and Warders of Men originated in the Middle East with Mesopotamian (and Arabian?) grey wolves. Black Furies originated in Greece, and the Shadow Lords started in East Europe. The Silver Fangs probably tried to lord it over all Garou, but I don't know how widespread they were back then. But in my understanding, the Garou didn't even separate into tribes until they started the Impergium and especially the War of Rage.
                          Non-wolf Garou?: Dholes had a wider Eurasian spread in the Ice Age, and African wild-dogs used to live as far north as Nubia. But I have no idea when Garou started breeding with those animals. They probably didn't breed with the wild-dogs during the Wars of Rage, since it required making a deal with the Mokole to make peace with the African Fera.
                          Grondr: The wild boars lived throughout Europe, Asia, and even Egypt. In Europe they were likely confined to the to forested patches of southern Europe during stadials (the colder periods of the Ice Age), but they did live in Ice Age southwest Asia and apparently also in parts of North Africa. Again, Wikipedia has a good map of their Holocene range: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_b..._range_map.jpg
                          Gurahl: There were brown bears and cave bears across most of Europe and Asia during the Ice Age, but mosty only in the southern pockets of forests during the stadials. Cave bears died out before the end of the Ice Age, seemingly before the Last Glacial Maximum or because of it. They depended on forest more than brown bears do, and were less able (or maybe unable) to eat meat. Brown bears were all over Holocene Europe, and also lived in Syria until fairly recently, and the Atlas Mountains until the Roman Empire times. Maybe they potentially lived in other parts of North Africa in the Ice Age. I'm not aware of any historical record of bears in Dynastic Egypt. I don't know the brown bear's historical distribution in the Middle-East. Only the Forest Walker and River Keeper tribes lived in your game region, so I imagine the Forest Walkers taking care of mountains.
                          Kitsune: Werefoxes didn't exist until the tail end of the War of Shame, and no further west than Tibet. They knew to stay out of non-hengeyokai Garou territory.
                          Mokole: Sea turtles on all the coasts, except not the Baltic. Giant Euphrates softshell turtles in Mesopotamia, which I consider plausible for the Ao (turtle-based Mokole). Crocodiles in Africa, especially the Nile. Maybe monitor lizards in Africa until the Garou killed the Mokole that bred with those.
                          Nagah: I don't know. Venomous snakes probably had a smaller range during the Ice Age, and expanded when things warmed up. Certainly you'd find them in Egypt, the Middle East, and Greece. Which species, I don't know. The Nagah aren't picky as long as it's venomous.
                          Ratkin: I don't know. Decide whether they can breed with other species of murid rodents, besides the sewer rats. I'd say yes and put them wherever you want them.
                          Rokea: Sharks in the sea, and bull sharks in the Tigris and Euphrates. Weresharks [claim that they] never set foot on land back in the First Times. They [claim that they] didn't even know how to shapeshift into humans until after the Deluge at the end of the Ice Age.
                          Last edited by Erinys; 05-16-2020, 11:31 PM.


                          I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                          Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors

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                          • #14
                            Thanks Erinys, this is great!

                            The book Shattered Dreams might be about this sort of time travel, actually. Not sure.
                            It is, that's what gave me the idea. But as it covers such a long period, it doesn't cover every part.

                            There is a really neat series of Ice Age biome maps here:
                            That's pretty useful, thanks. In the end, the time I decided they'll be visiting is about 50 years ago after the sea waters broke through the Bosphorous and the Black Sea's sea level rose.

                            So that's the Middle Holocene I think? 7300BC-ish? So recovering from the Ice Age, rather than in it?

                            So north Africa was still quite fertile, but that's not the game area.

                            So looks like, for me:
                            Anansi, Apis, Bastet (Bagheera, Khan, Qualmi, Simba), Garou (Get, Black Furies, Shadow Lords, Silver Fangs, but maybe the tribes aren't really seperated yet), Grondr, Gurahl (Forest-Walker and River-Keeper tribes), Mokole (Ao, the turtle-based ones), Nagah, Ratkin maybe, Rokea.

                            Why were you not sure about ratkin? Do they only breed with one kind of rat that you're not sure lived in Europe?


                            I play...
                            Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                            Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                              Thanks Erinys, this is great!
                              You're welcome Wizard!

                              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                              In the end, the time I decided they'll be visiting is about 50 years ago after the sea waters broke through the Bosphorous and the Black Sea's sea level rose.

                              So that's the Middle Holocene I think? 7300BC-ish? So recovering from the Ice Age, rather than in it?
                              That looks about right.

                              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                              So north Africa was still quite fertile, but that's not the game area.
                              Well, you mentioned Egypt. It looks like you're not using Egypt after all?

                              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                              So looks like, for me:
                              Anansi, Apis, Bastet (Bagheera, Khan, Qualmi, Simba), Garou (Get, Black Furies, Shadow Lords, Silver Fangs, but maybe the tribes aren't really seperated yet), Grondr, Gurahl (Forest-Walker and River-Keeper tribes), Mokole (Ao, the turtle-based ones), Nagah, Ratkin maybe, Rokea.
                              You're not using the Middle-East except Turkey, it looks like? Turkey did have cheetahs, but maybe the Swara were all killed off in that area. I think by this time the Garou tribes are separated, unless you don't want them to be. If they are, Bone Gnawers, Children of Gaia, and Warders of Men would likely show up in Turkey. I think Fenrir (Get of Fenris) might be unlikely, even in East Europe, though.

                              How far along do you plan to have the War(s) of Rage at this point in time? Depending on how long it's been going on by that time frame, your game area may have lost all its Gurahl, Grondr, Apis, Qualmi, Camazotz, and Ratkin. 'Cuz I completely forgot to mention that the Garou genocided all the Grondr and Apis in the world, and all the European and west Asian Camazotz. Of course if you want survivors in the game, then they aren't gone yet.

                              The first War of Rage drove most of the few surviving Gurahl to hide in hibernation. Also, after the War of Rage starts the Nagah don't show their faces except to execute corrupted shapeshifters. Anyone who finds out they exist gets executed, but they try to avoid being seen by (and having to kill) innocent people. They're judges who serve as divine retribution, but the War of Rage drove them to paranoia. They only work in threesomes, so they can keep each other honest.

                              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                              Why were you not sure about ratkin? Do they only breed with one kind of rat that you're not sure lived in Europe?
                              The books aren't consistent about what Ratkin breed with. Sometimes it's only genus Rattus, which isn't native to your game area. Sometimes it's a bunch of different rodents that are all roughly rat-shaped. Their purpose of keeping human populations in check looks untenable if they can't breed with native African and Middle-Eastern rodents. but I haven't researched rodent distributions much, so I don't have much info for you. During the time period you're using, though, most Ratkin are probably already in exile in the Deep Umbra. If you want to include them or not is really up to your preference, of course.
                              Last edited by Erinys; 05-17-2020, 01:22 PM.


                              I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                              Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors

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