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  • #16
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    I think what happened to them is that that single brief mention in the Black Spiral Dancers chapter of the original Book of the Wyrm was the only thing said about them. It's possible that they were an idea that just never went anywhere as Mage swallowed up most everything magic related, or it could be a creation of the author of that chapter that no other freelancers knew anything about and so never followed up on it, at least until several years later when Dark Ages Werewolf, lacking the BSDs as a major threat, turned to that bit of obscure lore for an additional villain.

    Because of my age, I grew up in the middle of the whole "Satanic Panic" thing of the 80s, with the plethora of horror films on cable and video, the constant (and often weird) demonization of hard rock and heavy metal music, and assorted travesties of the criminal justice system. So when someone mentions a cult of evil witches that someone turns to when they need a particularly difficult target killed, my mind immediately jumps to things like, say, The Omen, where grisly deaths that are murder-by-black-magic meant to look like freak accidents happen because "witchcraft" (or Wyrmcraft in this case) just happens to be useful for that. It's just sort of a genre trope that evil magic cults are good at killing people with magic, so that I've always viewed it as an aspect rather than a reason of being. But that's just me.

    In hindsight, I rather wish there'd been a Book of Wyrm Cults similar to the Freak Legion and Possessed books. We only really ever had three of them named, IIRC. The footnote that was the Red Circle, the defunct 19th century Enlightened Society of the Weeping Moon, and the Seventh Generation (who, while having a reasonably well developed organization, were a really terrible idea conceptually). It would've been cool to see a broad collection of groups ranging from professional assassins and end of the world mad scientists to hippy Manson families and creepy suburbanite housewives. Something for the STs Vault, I guess.
    I liked the Weeping Moon. The Seventh Generation creeped me out and not in a good way (aren’t they mostly defunct?). I never heard of the Circle of Red till I read this thread.


    “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her.

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    • #17
      I think the Seventh Generation is an example of something that latter White Wolf would publish in a Black Dog supplement. Its defining feature is something that a lot of people would not be comfortable with at the gaming table. There are some good elements in it, but I would split it into three separate Wyrm factions as I mentioned in my analysis of Rage Across New York. One would be a greed cult based on the business and politics caste, another would be a disease/plague cult that dates back to the Stone Age, and a much smaller Seventh Generation cult focused on sex trafficking and related crimes. I also refocused the Seventh Generation as a cult directed against the "sacred feminine" which allows for leeway in the flavor text to avoid the ick factor.

      I do like Wyrm cults though. In my chronicle notes, I have key canonical descriptions and ideas written for the Weeping Moon and Pretanic Order among others. In fact, the reason I started the thread was to see what else was known about the Circle of Red (which I only knew from that brief mention in first edition Book of the Wyrm), and wanted to know more in order to fill out my notes. The various references others have given have been a great help.

      But I'm now getting obsessed about that issue of Redcap fanzine.

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      • #18
        That’s a good idea. If I ever run Werewolf I might steal your Seventh Generation retcon 😊.

        I like the Pretanic Order too. I forgot about them.

        Good luck finding that fanzine.


        “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Penelope View Post

          I liked the Weeping Moon. The Seventh Generation creeped me out and not in a good way (aren’t they mostly defunct?). I never heard of the Circle of Red till I read this thread.
          As a general concept, The Seventh Generation was not a very good idea. Which is a shame, because from a purely structurally standpoint, it's a decently designed cult conspiracy. And yes, the idea of them being devoted to a much wider array of Wyrm related corruption goes a long way toward making them better.


          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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          • #20
            I want to use the Seventh Generation in my game but with some changes. The original concept is very reflective of the Satanic Panic of the 80s, and nowadays it's too close for comfort to the modern online conspiracy theory of a vast network of Satanic pedophiles running the world. Now granted, one could say that in the World of Darkness, such a conspiracy may actually be real. That's fair, but I do not want to even take the chance of lending credence to such real-world beliefs in my game.
            Also, Seventh Generation as written doesn't really seem to "fit" in my World of Darkness. With vampires and Pentex running stuff behind the scenes, it seems that they wouldn't really allow for much competition.
            I've never liked villains that are just evil for evil's sake, such as Seventh Generation abusing children because "Evil!!! Mwahahaha!"
            I plan to adjust Seventh Generation to be more like a self-empowerment group that has become infected with Wyrm-taint. There was a character like this on Dexter once who was sort of a dark mirror of a Tony Robbins-type empowerment guru. Add some hyper-masculine anti-feminist INCEL rhetoric. Sexual abuse is not the who mission of the cult, but some of its members engage in this practice because the social Darwinist dog-eat-dog mentality allows for it.

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            • #21
              One or both of the Silent Strider tribe books mentions the Red Circle or a Red Circle. I know based on what I remember that is where I developed the main villain in my Chronicle of the Ages campaign. I also know that I broke the Red Circle by aligning it with another group as well as the Giovanni vampires. My notes are currently boxed up and buried.

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              • #22
                If anyone knows what is said in one or both Silent Strider tribebooks, or the page number the Circle of Red is mentioned, I'd appreciate it. I doubt I'll be able to quickly find the reference buried somewhere in 200 pages of text. Thanks.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                  If anyone knows what is said in one or both Silent Strider tribebooks, or the page number the Circle of Red is mentioned, I'd appreciate it. I doubt I'll be able to quickly find the reference buried somewhere in 200 pages of text. Thanks.
                  TB:SS Rev 22-23 passim.



                  Explore the Savage Age of Werewolf: the Apocalypse. Tribebook: Wlewa rivals to the Garou Nation.

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                  • #24
                    Thanks, I was able to look it up. It's more or less a throwaway line to namedrop the Flaying Plague plot of Dark Ages: Werewolf. Though it is interesting to see mentions that this plot, not just the disease but the Circle of Red also, specifically in terms of it occurring within the "Caliphate" (which I assume the author means the lands of Islam. There were multiple caliphates at this time, and there were many Muslim states that were not ruled by any of them.) This would indicate the Circle of Red was active in Muslim lands, while the Dark Ages books present them as more an exclusive European group. It also says that the Silent Striders destroyed the Circle which I assume either happened in the Dark Ages era, or sometime after that.

                    This is an interesting claim, though it might be a result of the fragmentation of the Garou Nation. Any large enemy group that is spread over a large area would be hard to destroy by any one sept, or even a concolation of them. But the Striders, being the Garou's internal messengers, could coordinate actions to make sure that enemy is destroyed. And as such, the Striders could claim that. That explanation makes more sense to me than the Striders themselves hunting down the last of the Circle of Red, which is still a possibility.

                    In any case, this is clearly a case of the "second incarnation" of the Circle of Red as a Dark Ages foe, not the original group of Nephandi assassins that work closely with the Black Spiral Dancers.

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