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Could it be that the Wendigo and the Get of Fenris are descendants of the same tribe?

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  • Could it be that the Wendigo and the Get of Fenris are descendants of the same tribe?

    A friend of mine who used to be a regular master of werewolf for me had this thing going around in his lore where the Wendigo are descendants from the Get of Fenris. His arguments were the following: both have white-ish fur, both have similar Gifts, both are especially warrior-ish cultures and some other things similar. He justified it by saying that when Vikings sailed west and got to Canada, they left something there, that something being the garou gene.
    I’ve found out that he was wrong or that he had made up some of the details of his lore, but I’m not sure what to think of this one in particular and I haven’t the time to go about their tribebook and every source out there to verify it, so I decided I might as well ask it to you all. Thanks in advance for your answers!

  • Penelope
    replied
    Heavy Arms, Black Flag I Liked your posts cause you guys pretty much put into words what I was thinking.

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  • Black Flag
    replied
    Trying to make the Wendigo the product of Viking contact is icky, but I can certainly buy that they’re both the descendants of a common ancestor tribe from stone-age subarctic Eurasia.

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  • Penelope
    replied
    Lord Sho your friend’s arguments are totally flawed, but it’s very possible that a proto-Tribe (possibly called the Siberakh?) originated in Siberia and then split, with the tribe that migrated east across the Bering land bridge becoming the ancestors of the Wendigo, and the tribe that traveled west into Germany and Scandinavia becoming the ancestors of the Fenrir. So in a very distant sense they could be related. Also, like Eldagusto said, Ymir’s Sweat is a much more direct and recent example of the two tribes intermarrying.

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  • Lord Sho
    replied
    Thanks to all of you who answered! ^^

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  • The Cat Came Back
    replied
    the Get of Fenris tribebook does, in fact, talk about how the earliest followers of Fenris wrre wanderers, eho only settled in Scando-Europe somewhat later in their history (though still pre-Impergium)

    Much like the Shadow Lords and Fianna, then its very strongly implied that the trie heavily predates its modern kinfolk culture influences. So, why not have an ancient pan-arctiv tribe that, sometime between the sinking of Beringia anf the start of the Impergium, split in two?

    Of course then we open the idea that there have been more, possibly FAR more than sixteen tribes; this works fine for me, since the Hakken are right there, anf its a good segue into the Silver Fang houses.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Computer crapped out in the middle of the post, but I was going to say the Fenrir that bred with the Wendigo kin are the secret bloodline that make up the Camp of Ymir's Sweat.

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  • Gryffon15
    replied
    For me a question like this has sort of a "yes and no" answer.

    Are the Wendigo (hereafter referred to as 'Younger Brother') descended from the same tribe as the Get of Fenris? Yes and in several ways.

    The scientific answer is because cultural authenticity is a sucker's game. We're all descended from African primates who adapted into proto-humans and then into the modern human species around the time that other proto-humans were being driven extinct by environmental factors and inter-species warfare (of whose victors, we are the descendants. These people migrated to every region in the world, slowly adapting through the millennia into the ethnic and racial groups we know today with unique and distinct cultures and lingual groups that are all theoretically descended from that original Ur-Culture. So, in a way, yes.

    The garou answer is also yes in that tribes are a relatively recent development in the grand scheme. Debate rages over when spirits appeared, but werewolves need spirits
    and humans, so let's start there. Proto-human exists and for [Reason] Gaia binds spirits to some of them, likely creating the first kami, but that's conjecture. These beings, kami or otherwise, were needed in the long-term and so reproduced and spread forming the changing breeds. Each breed was distinct within its own niche. Sometime, I like to say around humanity's development of higher consciousness, the gauntlet rose. Old oaths were formed between the changing breed and spirits. The first rites were made. The first totems were formed via pacts between spirit and breed. Pacts that would in some way eclipse the Animal Elders. Garou, amongst many other breeds, began to claim totems. Some of them over Wolf. Legend says that the Silver Fangs may have been the first tribe, swearing fealty to Falcon. Regardless of the veracity of this, tribes arose. All garou, barring loners and ghost wolves, swore to a totem and joined a tribe. Yet, as we see in some umbral realms, all garou are ultimately apart of the same pre-tribal ur-nation of all garou. So, to your question, yes.

    However, here is also why I say no and why I lean towards it as the ultimate answer.

    Tribes most likely developed within the last ten millienia and most probably in less then half that time. Taking a scientific accounting of time into effect, some tribes formed relatively early through spiritual ties to certain kin groups. Others developed because of social pressures or ideology. The Bone Gnawers, Children of Gaia, and Warders of Man (Glass Walkers) explify these.

    But, whether there was an early proto-tribe from which the Fenrir and Younger Brother both originally sprung, other then the ur-tribe? Maybe. I'd say not, but it's possible such a thing existed early in pre-history before the Fenrir migrated into Europe and the Wendigo migrated into the Americas. They do both have proclivity towards warrior cultures, cold environments, and white-gray coats.

    Yet those things could also be from the facts that such things would be worthwhile adaptions in both the American North and European North and that all garou are war-like but that colder environs are somewhat inclined towards producing hunter-cultures who easily transition into warrior-cultures.

    These things aside: early human migrations, proto-tribal history, and common traits; let me get into why I really lean against the notion that the Fenrir and Younger Brother are of the same proto-tribe.

    For one, if the idea was seriously mentioned IC to most members of either tribe the reaction would likely range from an icy glare (pun intended) to out-right frenzy. Both tribes, as they exist today and in recent history (the past few millennia) have strong and distinct cultures.

    Let's get into the legends, which have a real weight in the world of ancestor-spirits and Multi-Resonance Layered Reality.

    The Fenrir claim to be the descendent of one of Gaia's mates/children (storytelling and specific avatar varies the relationship) Fenris. Fenrir was a great warrior who valued strength and purity (of body, mind, & soul) above all else. He found that there were none worthy of siring his children, who he refused to allow weakness, and he refused to mate with someone who wasn't his equal. One day he met a jotun (giantess) warrior-maiden and fought alongside her before wedding her. Setting aside the following misadventures with the Aesir, Vanir, Jotun, & Aelvar; the get of this union became his tribe as he ascended from legendary warrior into true totem. The Get of Fenris uphold themselves as the heirs of that strength and purity, drawing power and pride from it. The unfortunate dark side of such pride was later seen, but in a culture of Pure Breed and Ancestor-spirits it can't be ignored. Fenris accepts only those who are strong and pure. The unfit are not welcome amongst his children.

    Younger Brother is one of the three tribes of the Pure Lands. Many will tell ancient stories of their crossing into the new world over a great bridge that fell into the water, a journey that transformed and cleansed them. Some may instead tell many stories of the American First Peoples, that they had been always been of the Pure Lands, born there as the children of Younger Brother and tasked to fit their nature as the great warriors of the Pure Lands. The tribe of Younger Brother has upheld that duty for millennia and have always been close to the indigenous peoples who were their kin. This became especially prominent in recent history where the tribe of Younger Brother had become defined in-part by their absolute and unwavering loyalty to their ways, land, and people. Younger Brother define themselves as the last Pure Tribe, of the Americas and formed by its First People. They reject all claim to the Pure Lands by outsiders and many reject the notion that these lands weren't their first and only hope, entrusted into them by their mother to carry out their sacred duties.

    One can argue that either of these tribe's ideologies are misguided or that there histories may be inaccurate. Yet this is a world defined by spirits and the spirits of Fenrir and Younger Brother both are always pure in their claims. This is a world also where Dragon Kings presided over the world in pre-history. Human science doesn't account for the possibility of spirits or werewolves, yet they both exist in this world.

    Ultimately one can certainly do as they like and as long as all parties at the table or telling the story are having fun safely and communely, I celebrate them. Yet I also strongly feel that discrediting the claims and histories of these tribes is to do them both a disservice. Both of these tribes represent proud cultures and are often analogous to real-world sentiments, both for better and worse. I personally feel that it takes away from the narrative to imply that these tribes are somehow deluded or are ignorant of their own history. Which isn't to say the garou can't be wrong, they often are about a vast spectrum of things, but about things that are so tied to their core, I would need a strong reason and a specific narrative purpose to invalidate those core aspects of any tribe, and these two specifically.

    As I was writing this for instance, it certainly occurred to me that for a chronicle built upon the concept 'tribes are social constructs and are actively harmful to everyone' or some variation, I would certainly lean into this notion. The idea of two tribes who so radically hate each other having the same common ancestors is rather humorous, even if their histories put it into a dark light. For a chronicle like that I think it's a great idea. Yet I also acknowledge and understand whi fans of both tribes could be strongly displeased by the concept, especially if they weren't given some indication of it. That's not a judgement, it's simply that many chronicles are broken or made by player-player expectations.

    Anyway, that's my two cents and why I personally lean towards the answer of 'no' to your question. Regardless, I hope you have a lot of fun with your group!

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  • Pittmonkey
    replied
    Get and Windigo would have been the first eastern/western tribes to meet.
    Culturally, more in tuned. Their society’s would mesh quicker then abrahamic Europe (we are people first)

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  • Black Fox
    replied
    All the Garou tribes predate any contemporary human cultures. In my own chronicles I start the origin of the Changing Breeds around 10,000 BC when human populations have covered the globe and all Changing Breeds can be of the same age. But official lore of the game can drop that back to 15,000 BC, 20,000 BC, or even longer.

    In fact, even if you map certain tribes with specific ethnic groups, you have to realize that the areas they are occupying now did not even have people whose ancestors spoke those languages until recently. The Indo-European speakers did not enter Europe until after 4000 BC. So if you assume the Get of Fenris are still in Scandinavia prior to 4000 BC, the people living there aren't even the ancestors of the Vikings and speaking a language completely unrelated to any Germanic language. The people we now call Slavs wouldn't even be in the areas we now think of the Slavic heartlands until well after the Roman Empire. The migrations of people in pre-historic times is just unknown except by what little we have in archaeological artifacts.

    So anyone who is trying to relate any tribe of Garou with distinctive people in pre-history can only do so by making lots of assumptions. Nobody would be correct in their decisions although some people's decisions would be more plausible than others.

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  • Coyoteintx
    replied
    Fenris almost assuredly predates the viking concept (in fact, considering we know the Get were active during the Impergium -- its all but assured).. I think it makes a lot of sense that Fenris pre-existed the Vikings and may have had contact (or descend from) the Garou that originally venerated Fenris.

    Though, to be honest, I think the Wendigo and White Howlers have more in common.
    Last edited by Coyoteintx; 05-02-2020, 05:00 PM.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Lord Sho View Post
    I’ve found out that he was wrong or that he had made up some of the details of his lore, but I’m not sure what to think of this one in particular and I haven’t the time to go about their tribebook and every source out there to verify it, so I decided I might as well ask it to you all. Thanks in advance for your answers!
    The Wendigo were in the Americas for many thousands of years before any Vikings got there. So the idea that the Wendigo are descendants form the Fenrir makes zero sense in the lore of the game.

    If you wanted to really do this, it would be the other way around. Back when the pre-Wendigo were following Yeti and had kin among the arctic human tribes of Eurasia, they'd have kin among the Sami people, and the wolves of Scandinavia. As other groups entered the area and interbred, eventually leading to the local cultures associated with the Get of Fenris, it would be the Wendigo that left a legacy of Garou there first.

    That all said, in general, it's important to remember that the "modern" Tribes aren't how Garou were originally organized in their history. Tribes are things that happened in the ancient past, but did "happen" rather than get established at the get go.

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  • Coyoteintx
    replied
    So, in the Savage Age, they are... at least distantly. I am working on Vol 2 right now and just inserted an essay on how the various Tribes came to be. In the Savage Age there are proto-Garou canid Fera who start to intermindle during the War of Rage. The number of canid-Fera "Tribes" (they really arent Tribes in the modern sense, but the word fits)

    This is the table I am working on to track the various inter-relationships... its still not finalized, so there might be a few shifts in the final version.



    Anupu Ba El (Aureus)

    Primary Descendants
    Silent Striders

    Secondary Descendants
    Children of Gaia


    Atzu Telal Nahau (Mosbachensis)

    Primary Descendants
    Children of Gaia
    Glass Walkers
    Black Furies

    Secondary Descendants
    Bone Gnawers


    Bilai (Lupus)

    Primary Descendants
    Fianna
    Get of Fenris
    White Howlers

    Secondary Descendants
    Black Spiral Dancers


    Kucha (Lycaon)

    Primary Descendants
    Red Talons

    Secondary Descendants
    Bunyip
    Star Gazers


    Siberakh (Beringian)

    Primary Descendants
    Shadow Lords
    Silver Fangs

    Secondary Descendants
    White Howlers
    Get of Fenris


    Tengger (Lupus)

    Primary Descendants
    Croatan
    Uktena
    Wendigo
    Stargazers
    Last edited by Coyoteintx; 05-02-2020, 02:22 PM.

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