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historical decline of the wolf population

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  • #16
    Animal fomori are somewhat rarer then human fomori but they certainly can exist and fomori wolves would most definitely be a great enemy to the Garou.

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    • #17
      Sounds like something in line with the type of grand as well as personal tragedy W:tA aims for.

      Imagine there's *something* targeting feral wolves. Maybe there were pandemics not found in our world. Maybe it really was something supernatural, like Banes. Hitting the Garou Nation where it hurts by depriving them of a precious resource. You'd have paranoid Tribes try to gobble up as many wolf-kin as they can. They could very well come to blows over who "owns" which untainted wolf packs. A good way to seed more conflict among the Gaian Garou.

      Such a world might look like it has even fewer wolves than ours, but actually has more, just hidden away in quasi-zoos.

      Hmmm. Now there's an insane idea. Some radical werewolf (or other shifter) collecting vampire blood to feed kinfolk so they won't age. Might make for an interesting antagonist...
      Last edited by Konigheim Horror; 07-04-2020, 09:24 AM.

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      • #18
        I can definitely see there being plot hooks that would be interesting to explore along some of those trains of thought.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Lian View Post
          I am going to trim these down because you seem to have missed my point. If an ST had 9/10s of the human population is dying of a disease... would your characters get involved? or "All the humans are starving". That is why I bring them up.
          I don't think I missed your point, I just disagreed with it. Or if I did, your second post hasn't clarified it for me.

          If I mentioned in a game that 90% of humanity was dying, I'm pretty sure my players would want to get involved. They wouldn't think that is just background filler that can be ignored. It's such a significant element they would want to explore it in game. They'd probably think this is an Apocalypse chronicle. I think that would be the case for most game groups. So I'm not sure what your point is with this comment.

          Originally posted by Lian View Post
          If you treat history as endless Pc plots.. it doesn't make sense. I mean it wouldn't take more than a garou or two to have destroyed many of the extremely fragile early North American settlements.. and it wouldn't be hard to see them as the blame for the diseases.
          I don't think every event in history requires supernatural involvement. The vast majority of historical events are probably inconsequential from a Garou perspective. But I think there are times when incorporating a historical event in the game makes good sense. And it is for the exact same reason an ST may be inspired by current events, or why things like modern industrial pollution is given a supernatural antagonist counterpart like PENTEX.

          If you don't think the mass slaying of wolves in the 19th and 20th centuries is something that can be explored in game, fine that's your decision for your chronicles. But I disagree, and I think I have some good reasons for that disagreement.

          First, in my experience that is something that will always provoke a response from PCs in games whether it is tabletop, online, or LARP. Mentioning that one or more wolves are being killed (and this are low numbers compared to the historical period) motivates PCs to investigate and take action. Furthermore, if NPCs are ever mentioned as not caring, then universally all PCs look upon that NPC as being strange and start to wonder what is wrong with them. So if that NPC reaction is supposed to be normal, I feel there needs to be a good explanation in game. Second, the death of wolves has a direct impact to the Garou. It is directly relevant to the lupus breed. And even if kinfolk lupus are somehow spared, the mass death of non-kinfolk stock now renders the kinfolk wolves extremely vulnerable to the next generation of hunters or disease, and prevents them from bringing in new wolf blood and adding them to the kinfolk. Since the Veil is a non-issue between wolf kinfolk and ordinary wolves, there should be lots of interbreeding. Third, the game already has examples of how wolf killings and the threat of animal extinction motivates Garou. The megafaunal extinction of the late Ice Age is one of the motivations of establishing the Impergium. And in the Dark Ages game, they invented a fictional wolf killing disease (the Flaying Plague) to serve as a major plot point.

          So all of this tells me that it is something worth exploring.

          Originally posted by Lian View Post
          Even more extreme... it would have been pretty easy Fianna to stop the Potato famine. Or destroy Roman Legions. Or Stop the Spread of Christianity or... I can go on. The death of wolves is.. not any wierder than any part of history that includes Garou looking vaguely similar to ours.
          I completely disagree. First, none of those historical events truly threaten the Garou in any way. Garou have seen waves of migrations by human peoples before they end in bloodshed and conquest. It doesn't materially affect things like caerns. And kinfolk can adapt. Individual Garou might be individually motivated, but their actions or potential actions are often cancelled by the presence of Garou on the opposing side. Fianna or Get of Fenris who might want to attack the Roman Legions have to face Garou of Glass Walkers and Silver Fangs who travel with those Legions. Instead of involving themselves with human matters (even if their homid kinfolk get swept up in it), it seems to me the more likely response is to ride things out, make sure caerns aren't endangered, and handle any Garou conflicts in ways that don't draw human attention. In other scenarios, I'm not sure how the Fianna or any other Garou can deal with a potato blight. Garou aren't going to stop monocrop agriculture or the appearance of a plant disease. It's not something they can kill their way out of. And furthermore, the tribe can deal with its negative effects in easily explained ways - encouraging their kinfolk to migrate, transferring food from normal humans to kinfolk, and being rest assured that they have plenty of Fianna elsewhere outside Ireland. So to my mind, there are very easy answers to those questions.

          I don't think they're comparable elements to 90%+ of the wolf population being actively slain by human agents. So I think a failure here to explain stuff can harm the game. And I think coming up with interesting solutions can add to the game.

          It doesn't even necessarily have to be the cause of bad guy supernaural agents. Perhaps for centuries, the Garou response to wolf killing was to directly harm the hunters. But instead of causing humans to leave local wolves alone, the response caused the humans to cut down even more forests and send even more hunters out to kill the local wolf population. And if the war got bad enough, then it would attract the attention of other enemies of the Garou who could kill them. So as a result, it became standard policy to not interfere. Long term it was best to allow local hunters to kill wolves because in the long term it would benefit the wolves and Garou. Maybe this was codified in great Concolations or perhaps even an Imperial Moot. And maybe that worked well for centuries. And as a result, there are direct violations of Garou law that now come as a result. Now if a Garou wanted to do something, they might be directly violating the law. And for many Garou, they don't want the risk of being an outright criminal on their reputation. And while many Garou might argue whatever that law's previous merits, it is now extremely stupid and should be overturned. The only problem is that the law was established by one of the Great Concolations and an Imperial Moot, so in order to cancel it you need to get the tribes together again. But that would be a huge undertaking and took too long to do. Maybe this is one of the great reasons why the Silver Fangs began to see as increasingly ineffectual - they enforced this policy with an Imperial Moot, and are now too slow to develop a response when the policy needs to change, or a new solution is needed. Maybe the other tribes were fine with looking the other way when the Red Talons or lupus members broke the law, but wouldn't do it themselves. And unsupported by the other Garou, they were ineffectual because their numbers are already low.

          That may not be the only answer, or insufficient by itself, but it could be a partial answer. And it would kind of make sense. It presents an obstacle for the Garou to do something, and with enough obstacles added, something inexplicable now makes somewhat sense. And it could fit nicely with existing lore.

          That is the kind of brainstorming I'm hoping to see.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
            •The Hunter Bane
            Whether called 'Flint' or 'Gilgamesh' or something else entirely, this great bane embodies the arrogant hunter. They hunt to extinction, they gorge on flesh and leave the rest to rot, they are wasteful with bodies, and they are disrespectful to the spirits. They draw the ire of spirits wherever they go and taint humans and drive them to pride and excess. Whatever bison aye gunned down or big game hunters slay the endangered for their ego alone, The Bane Hunter walks. In the times where the kinfolk of the changing breed are at threat, The Bane Hunter became a dreadful thing and great threat. The Gaians must battle them and their minions viciously and that draws their attention partially away from mortal hunters as banes hound wolf spirits and The Bane Hunter's fomori hound wolves.
            I like this. A spirit like this Bane could easily have been around for a long time. But something in the 18th or 19th century allowed it to progress to something like an Incarna level spirit. Maybe something like the extinction of the Aurochs, Great Auk, or Passenger Pigeon triggered it. I think some kind of whale might be a good answer, because the Garou would not normally be concerned about something happening in the ocean, and the whaling industry was huge in the 19th century. Maybe it's not extinction per say, but the huge numbers of deaths in general. I know the gray whale was extirpated from the North Atlantic in the early 18th century.

            All of a sudden, the Garou had to deal with a plague of Banes in the Umbra that hurt their ability to adequately defend any wolves while the banes encouraged even more human hunters to join in the efforts. Before such banes were irritating, but not a mass threat. But when one of the more powerful Jagglings was elevated to Incarna status because of the mass killings, it became a real serious problem the Garou were not expecting.

            I definitely think it can be part of the explanation.
            Last edited by Black Fox; 07-05-2020, 06:46 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Konigheim Horror View Post
              With all the Banes being pointed at humans... Is there actually a concrete reason why no supernatural malady can afflict the wolf kinfolk?
              This is an interesting idea! If there was some kind of explosion of wolf fomori for whatever reason, it'd cause a lot of problems for the Garou to combat their extirpation. This doesn't even need to occur everywhere for it to be a problem. Limiting it to a certain area - say the continental United States - would still explain a lot. It's just one more element of a "perfect storm".

              The Ways of Wolf book includes Wolf Fomori as one of its antagonists. We're given little information about them except "When wolves were more populous, some would occasionally wander into areas of Wyrm contamination, or be captured by agents of the Corrupter. They were transformed into hideous creatures, then sent to fight the lupus packs. Wyrm agents and the Black Spiral Dancers still use the wolf fomori. They are much rarer than their human counterparts. They are commonly used against packs of kinfolk, or Red Talon packs."

              This is sufficiently vague so we can use it for inspiration. Maybe there was some kind of plot and BSD kinfolk left out poison traps that instead of killing, tainted them for bane possession. This created many hordes of wolf fomori that the Garou need to kill. And the human hunters who killed wolves would kill both tainted and non-tainted kind. And perhaps if this particular wolf fomori were particularly contagious, the Garou might even accept mass killing of wolves in order to ensure the survival of others.

              I think a lot could be done on this idea! We just need to figure out a good antagonist to pin it on - a BSD plot? Enlightened Society of the Weeping Moon? Someone else? A brand new faction?

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              • #22
                Glad ya like it! Yeah, I was mostly just thinking about the hunting practices that endangered certain species at the time but I can also imagine a sort of vicious cycle forming around this spirit's sphere of influence with animals being driven to extinction by human action which then serves to feed the hunter's spirit and drive them towards further action.

                Whaling is a strong candidate for that I agree, particularly since to my knowledge the icy northern oceans where a lot of whaling occurred would limit Rokea interference to my knowledge... which is assuming that the were-sharks would even care I admit.

                Of course a link could also begin forming between this spirit and the rokea as shark populations also suffer mass hunting.

                Kinda makes me wonder how much some Hollywood Wyrm Cult invested into the creation of Jaws in the World of Darkness...

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                • #23
                  I also think one partial solution is to create an organization of capable werewolf hunters that could have participated during the great wolf hunts. They used other hunters killing of normal wolves as a bait to lure out Garou so they could kill them. W:tA typically lacked good hunter antagonists. DNA started out as one, but eventually was turned into a Weaver-influenced organization with super science powers. And ther standard hunter groups were always mentioned as usually avoiding the Garou entirely.

                  So some kind of small organization specifically dedicated to killing the Garou would be useful. As it is one that could survive to the present day. I would prefer it to not be associated with the Wyrm. These would be humans killing Garou for understandable motives. They see the Garou as being a curse that needs to end. So they are doing the Garou a favor by killing them. Plus simply protecting humanity from such monsters. Though they might have access to certain low powered Paths of Sorcery that could help them identify Garou and ward and protect them from Garou. Something based on ancient lore and superstition that this group preserved or rediscovered, Also possible that it was founded by Kinfolk who betrayed the Garou because of some crime done against them, explaining why they may have a great deal of knowledge about the Garou that allows them to hunt in safety. Or maybe by kinfolk of one of the Fera almost killed to extinction by the Garou. A rogue kinfolk of the Gurahl for example.

                  Maybe the 19th century was when enough of local werewolf hunters - with their own traditions and local knowledge - were able to make contact with each other, create an organization, and the combination of increased knowledge and enough members meant they could be far more effective than what they once were. Maybe it was through the creation of some kind of benevolent fraternal society that served as a front to do so, and their society rituals are symbolic of the lore of hunting Garou safely.

                  I think combined with some of the other ideas listed here, we're getting close to a "perfect storm" that can adequately explain things.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                    I think a lot could be done on this idea! We just need to figure out a good antagonist to pin it on - a BSD plot? Enlightened Society of the Weeping Moon? Someone else? A brand new faction?
                    Forcing the Garou Tribes to kill infected/possessed wolf kinfolk to the point of driving local extinction is quite evil indeed.

                    Several options come to mind. Depending on what theme is to be explored.

                    It might've been a next of Banes hidden in a remote natural location. Nature in the World of Darkness can be a Wyrmish mess even without humans. A wandering pack came to close to a portal, or dug up the spiritual equivalent of viruses trapped beneath ice.

                    It might've been a misguided and/or botched attempt to empower ordinary wolves by an appropriate faction (Red Talons, for example, or Wendigo). It worked insofar as it empowered them... by opening them up to Banes rather than heroic spirits. The result is strong enough to defend itself against most human hunters, sure. Mission accomplished!

                    Personally, it being a plot by Black Spiral Dancer Lupus is also fun. As in, the Homids of the Dancers didn't really consider the option; it took wolf-born Garou to hit the Gaian wolves where it _hurt_.

                    Or a completely different group. Maybe someone was trying to create some form of Garou from scratch. Pentex made the War Wolves, but they lack the spiritual spark to be true shifters; even Samsa have that. Perhaps some cabal, some wolf-cult went the opposite direction and attempted to imbue wolves with a spark of the divine, resulting in much the same as the other option above: Demon(Bane)-possessed wolves. Perhaps this cult aimed to replace the Garou with a more "worthy" breed, or they simply wanted something controllable.

                    And this breed of aggressive, powerful wolves in turn resulted in more human hunters, who often got killed by Garou torn between protecting the increasingly few wolves left, enraged at the idea of mankind 'overstepping its bounds', mounting guilt at their inability to actually solve the issue without more bloodshed, and leading to serious attention by capital H Hunters...

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                    • #25
                      To make it interesting, have it be from non-BSD sources. After all, if the wolves die, all Garou follow, including the Dancers, and the Dancers are way too self-indulgent and ultimately afraid of dying to leap into those jaws.

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                      • #26
                        Can Formori still breed Garou? Would the Spirals be interested in "protecting" possessed wolf kinfolk?

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                        • #27
                          I will summarize our possibilities now. Rather than one answer, I think the best solution is a "perfect storm" as these various elements came together.
                          1. Possible political interference as a result of some Garou taboo or obsolete law, perhaps from an Imperial Moot, as a result of blowback from previous Garou attacks on human wolf hunters. This complicated and/or delayed Garou getting involved.
                          2. The rise of a new "hunter" Incarna spirit as a result of man-made accelerated extinction in the prior two centuries. As a result, new Bane spirits arrived that fought Garou in the Penumbra and defended human hunters. Garou needed to spend their time fighting these Banes before they could deal with any human hunters.
                          3. The establishment of a major anti-werewolf hunting organization in the 19th century, as local anti-werewolf hunters and their lore made contact with each other. These hunters would normal wolf hunts as stalking horses to lure out Garou and slay them. This greatly complicated Garou retaliation against human hunters.
                          4. The sudden mass appearance of wolf-fomori, perhaps by tainted feed included in normal wolf hunting strychnine traps, complicated things. In this case, human hunters were also killing these fomori as well as normal wolves, and the Garou were conflicted as to how to act. In fact, in so far that wolf depredation against livestock was a major reason for wolf hunting, maybe there was a rash of wolf fomori doing just that to kickstart the whole process. One possible culprit - the Enlightened Society of the Weeping Moon.
                          5. Groups of Black Spiral Dancer began to establish their own communities in North America at this time, and they actively hunted wolves in the hope to kill kinfolk of their enemies. Since they were protected by packs of Black Spiral Dancers, Garou who retaliated would be ambushed and killed.
                          Along with other explanations on why Garou might not care or quarrel before doing anything, I think we're the ways down a good path. This gives some good lore for STs to use, and perhaps some legacy antagonists for STs as well.

                          So anything other brainstorms that can develop these existing ideas a bit more? Or perhaps some new idea we haven't though of yet?

                          For example, I had another idea. We know there are awakened plants that can be used against Garou. It's not an idea strongly supported in the game, but it is there. Valkenburg Foundation mentions awakened Wolfsbane repels Garou unless they roll against their Willpower. And it can be a trigger for some of the Supernatural Flaws for characters. There are other traditional/folkloric banes against werewolves as well. Perhaps the Garou did something that angered one of these plant spirits? Perhaps it was some violation against some implied Chiminage to these spirits? Or someone performed some immense Chiminage to such a spirit. That might have temporarily (say for several decades) activated these plants to become much more deadly, and therefore give hunters a lot more protection.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                            I will summarize our possibilities now. Rather than one answer, I think the best solution is a "perfect storm" as these various elements came together.
                            1. Possible political interference as a result of some Garou taboo or obsolete law, perhaps from an Imperial Moot, as a result of blowback from previous Garou attacks on human wolf hunters. This complicated and/or delayed Garou getting involved.
                            2. The rise of a new "hunter" Incarna spirit as a result of man-made accelerated extinction in the prior two centuries. As a result, new Bane spirits arrived that fought Garou in the Penumbra and defended human hunters. Garou needed to spend their time fighting these Banes before they could deal with any human hunters.
                            3. The establishment of a major anti-werewolf hunting organization in the 19th century, as local anti-werewolf hunters and their lore made contact with each other. These hunters would normal wolf hunts as stalking horses to lure out Garou and slay them. This greatly complicated Garou retaliation against human hunters.
                            4. The sudden mass appearance of wolf-fomori, perhaps by tainted feed included in normal wolf hunting strychnine traps, complicated things. In this case, human hunters were also killing these fomori as well as normal wolves, and the Garou were conflicted as to how to act. In fact, in so far that wolf depredation against livestock was a major reason for wolf hunting, maybe there was a rash of wolf fomori doing just that to kickstart the whole process. One possible culprit - the Enlightened Society of the Weeping Moon.
                            5. Groups of Black Spiral Dancer began to establish their own communities in North America at this time, and they actively hunted wolves in the hope to kill kinfolk of their enemies. Since they were protected by packs of Black Spiral Dancers, Garou who retaliated would be ambushed and killed.

                            Along with other explanations on why Garou might not care or quarrel before doing anything, I think we're the ways down a good path. This gives some good lore for STs to use, and perhaps some legacy antagonists for STs as well.

                            So anything other brainstorms that can develop these existing ideas a bit more? Or perhaps some new idea we haven't though of yet?

                            For example, I had another idea. We know there are awakened plants that can be used against Garou. It's not an idea strongly supported in the game, but it is there. Valkenburg Foundation mentions awakened Wolfsbane repels Garou unless they roll against their Willpower. And it can be a trigger for some of the Supernatural Flaws for characters. There are other traditional/folkloric banes against werewolves as well. Perhaps the Garou did something that angered one of these plant spirits? Perhaps it was some violation against some implied Chiminage to these spirits? Or someone performed some immense Chiminage to such a spirit. That might have temporarily (say for several decades) activated these plants to become much more deadly, and therefore give hunters a lot more protection.
                            Sounds like a power point presentation given to a Glaswalker sept. In all the right ways, I mean!

                            The wolfsbane thing, I like. It could've been an angered spirit, or a mage with a vendetta against Garou, or another changing breed. Might be worth it to look at when the stories about wolfsbane started popping up to get a grasp on what it could've been and since when it became a serious problem.

                            And coming back to the Glaswalkers... their mirror opposite, the Red Talons, are almost completely defined by two things: they're all lupus, and the idea of murdering regular humans. Even the outsider factions form an identity around _not_ wanting to murder humans. That's the single ideological question dominating the Tribe, for better or worse (I'd argue the worse, but let's put that aside for the moment).

                            Now, imagine if there's a similar extremist group among the Glaswalkers (or Bone Gnawers, but the Glaswalkers fit better) having come to the belief that lupus Garou are a relic. An unneeded anarchronism. Maybe they're informed by some twisted idea of survival of the fittest—humans are thriving, wolves are going extinct. You don't strictly need wolves to keep producing Garou. What do the lupus offer the Garou Nation in a future of dwindling wilderness versus massive, bustling cities? The way of the future is not the way of the wild wolf, or so they might argue among themselves. Plus, if the Red Talons are the epitome of what it means to be lupus, as they may very well claim to be, then a fringe group of homid supremacists could in turn decide they have no place in the world to come.

                            Such a camp would have to be exceedingly careful in their actions, lest the rest of Garou-kind come down on them like a ton of bricks with claws. But every little bit helps, or hurts, as it were. In their minds, they're probably just speeding up a natural process.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Konigheim Horror View Post
                              Now, imagine if there's a similar extremist group among the Glaswalkers (or Bone Gnawers, but the Glaswalkers fit better) having come to the belief that lupus Garou are a relic. An unneeded anarchronism. Maybe they're informed by some twisted idea of survival of the fittest—humans are thriving, wolves are going extinct. You don't strictly need wolves to keep producing Garou. What do the lupus offer the Garou Nation in a future of dwindling wilderness versus massive, bustling cities? The way of the future is not the way of the wild wolf, or so they might argue among themselves. Plus, if the Red Talons are the epitome of what it means to be lupus, as they may very well claim to be, then a fringe group of homid supremacists could in turn decide they have no place in the world to come.

                              Such a camp would have to be exceedingly careful in their actions, lest the rest of Garou-kind come down on them like a ton of bricks with claws. But every little bit helps, or hurts, as it were. In their minds, they're probably just speeding up a natural process.
                              This is oddly compelling. It is definitely worth exploring.

                              There certainly is a presentation of the Glass Walkers tribe that they feel they are the future, that urban civilization is the future, that this is part of Gaia regardless of what the other tribes say, and the Garou need to move on (with the Glass Walkers leading them). I think this was more pronounced in early editions, than later. But the arrogance is still there.

                              Such a group doesn't even need to target wolf kinfolk. They can be happy (theoretically) to send the wolf kinfolk off to live in some imagined national park or the far off wilderness, but those non-kinfolk wolves need to go. I think the best way to portray the group is not one that is deliberately killing wolves. They have an ideal or goal they are working for. It's just that the wolves are in the way, and that if they go, it's not really a big loss. The future is with urban civilization. Of course, the other tribes don't see it that way, so we have to keep it a secret.

                              I think there is a good camp where this could start - the Iron Riders. The 19th century was defined in many ways by the railroads, and allowing towns and humans to populate areas and thrive where they couldn't before. And the building of the railroads was all about mastering nature - is there a mountain in the way? Level it, or blow a hole through it. Build bridges over that river. Buffalo horde damaging the railcars? Kill them off. And it's been mentioned that the Iron Riders camp is what finally made the tribe worthy of being respected by the other tribes because it gave the tribe real power.

                              It doesn't need to be the entire camp, but there could be a conspiracy within it. And they don't need to kill the wolves themselves. They just need to clandestinely help the ordinary human hunters be protected from Garou retaliation from other tribes. And in some cases, the Garou of that tribe might openly conflict with other Garou. For example, Glass Walkers are behind building one of the railroads across the Great Plains (pick your own, or create a fictional one). Their kinfolk are building it (among other humans). To make it safe to do so, or to allow the ranchers who feed them their beef meals to do so, they know wolf hunting is happening. Some Garou show up, but these Glass Walkers tell them they are intruding on their Protectorate (the lands immediately around the planned railroad and the people working on them) and a fight happens/challenge. But they aren't unsympathetic. They're willing to help you relocate any lupus kinfolk elsewhere so they won't get in the way.

                              It's the type of thing later Glass Walkers would deny or feel shame about, but maybe not the Glass Walkers of this era. I imagine Glass Walker PCs of the Wyld West era would still object to it, but it makes more sense for the tribe as a whole to not care. They're building the future after all. And the death of these non-kinfolk wolves are tragic, but unavoidable.

                              Perhaps the same camp (or conspiracy within the camp) was responsible for making the first substantial progress into getting benefits and control over Weaver spirits (as opposed to Cockroach), and thus represented a huge step forward in power. So the rest of the tribe went with it, because the power offered was quite substantial. Perhaps there was even an explicity Chiminage requirement for some of these spirits that the Glass Walkers ignore the pleas of the wolves, or even that they assist with killing them - as a sacrifice to prove their loyalty to the new Weaver spirits who will begin to offer all these great new Gifts to the Glass Walkers. This is the era after all when totems like Stourbridge Lion and City Incarna began making themselves available to the tribe. That would make a great tribal secret that can't be exposed. And perhaps, the tribe still needs to perform some kind of Chiminage sacrifice to these Weaver spirits. So this can still generate plot even for current chronicles.

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                              • #30
                                Excellent points.

                                I hadn't really considered it, but you're right, of course, it makes a lot of sense if early iterations of this movement may have thought they weren't doing much damage in the first place. Back then, wolves were plentiful, their predations a problem for *their* kinfolk, so they didn't see a great problem with forcing them to move... or else. Adding up with all the other factors leading to a decline in wild populations, much like the passenger pigeon or bison.

                                Later on, when it became shameful history to most of the Tribe, something never brought up with outsiders and best forgotten about, a few will look back and conclude it may not have been that bad. It was when their Tribe gained actual power and influence. Moreover, there's also still a Tribe partly arguing for complete human extinction, and the rest of the Garou nation doesn't appear to be quite as outraged over that as one might hope they'd be.

                                Power through sacrifice. It's easy to sacrifice something you won't miss. Or believe you won't miss.

                                About the spirit connection... wasn't there an Umbral realm forcing shifters into their animal forms, taking their human skills from them and let them be hunted like beasts? Unfortunately, I only know the German name for it: Wolfsheim. Supposedly it exists to humble the Fera trapped inside. Forgive me if this is a little out there, I just keep wondering what kind of trauma a proud shapechanger might carry home after some time there. Or what kind of spirits it might birth if tapped from the outside.

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