Garou v kindred alliance

[Pnizzle]

I’m running some ‘neutral’ garou faction in a city for a VtM game.

The vampire PCs are in a troublesome truce with them.

One player is entirely specialized and appears as human.

I RPed the garou as treating the ‘human’ as a mind slave (knowing vampires have some kind of mental control, but being young aren’t certain exactly).

Is it realistic for them to liberate the ‘human’ or would it have been better to get rid of or ignore them?

I have some ideas already for their reasoning behind accepting a truce but I’ll keep it secret in case the players find this post.

[MyWifeIsScary]

nah, garou aren't likely to screw themselves big after something so small.

[Kharnov]

If you're actually interested in depicting authentic Garou, rather than generic VtM "Lupines," then it's not very likely; particular individuals might be sympathetic, but if Garou care about "humanity" beyond their own Kinfolk, it tends to be in the "big picture"/whole species sense.

The bigger question is why your Garou are negotiating with Leeches instead of ashing them. There are plenty of decent and interesting answers. My point is that they probably aren't going to get broken up over the plight of one "monkey" if circumstances have already pushed them to working with "Wyrm-tainted" corpses.

[heinrich]

The problem is indeed the depiction of garou. Most 1st Edition TBs mention uneasy truces with vampires, because of bigger problems. That said, vampires are to be destroyed, if the Veil permits, because they are by nature supernatural parasites and therefore harming the natural balance. But, they aren't solely (unwitting) agents of the Wyrm but also bring some level of stagnation and stability. Therefore Garou would concentrate on other enemies, like, banes, fomori, black spiral dancers, wyrm cultists, nephandi and what not.

So, Kharnov is right, if circumstances are that they let the vampires existence slide and even cooperated on some degree, they might not go into the "blood slave" or mindslave thing, unless for personal reasons. Black Furies, for example, have a lesser tolerance them most tribes, when it comes to someone forcing another person against their will - they value personal freedom highly. Silent Strider, for historic reasons, hate vampires so much, that travelling Striders would probably attack them, even if the local garou had an truce with them.

So, if you want the conflict there, then have the troupe run into other garou than the ones they know and realise, that they behave very differently. Also make sure, that the garou they dealt with before might be willing to turn a blind eye, but that this doesn't mean every of the local garou would. Most likely the pack that had contact with the troupe didn't advertise the fact that they met vampires, and didn't kill them, to the rest of the local garou.... and players should know that.

[Black Fox]

If you go by early portrayal, you have much greater flexibility in Garou/Lupines dealing with vampires. While the default scenario of most tribes (rural/wilderness based) is to kill them, there have always been noticeable exceptions.

First, the Bone Gnawers. I will say that you can justify almost any kind of relationship with Bone Gnawers. The tribe, as a whole, no longer follows the Litany in a way recognizable to the other tribes. The tribe has an ongoing relationship with the Nosferatu clan where they trade information. A large part of the tribe is also de facto allies with the Sabbat (!) probably because of the needs of the Central Park Caern in Sabbat held New York. Using that as an example, it would not be surprising if Bone Gnawers elsewhere had similar dealings with local vampires.

Second, Glass Walkers. This tribe would be more antagonistic to vampires, but more prone to making deals of convenience. They don't like it, and don't trust vampires, but the environment where they work in practically requires it. Otherwise they'd be sucked into ongoing vampire wars and couldn't get anything else done.

Third, Shadow Lords. Individual Lords might make any number of deals with vampires if it suits their purposes. The game even created the Bringers of Light camp in order to explain why this happens.

Fourth, the Uktena and Wendigo, through their kinfolk, have some dealings with the Sabbat - which I assume are Loyalist Packs made up of Native Americans vampires. This is probably a dark secret of the tribes and are the least described in the sourcebooks, but it's been there since the early days.

The other tribes are much more circumspect. Very rare dealings with compromised individuals or packs with most being extremely hostile. But the above tribes' activities with vampires are much more documented.

In the Revised era, this and many other examples of Garou dealings with Wyrm minions or Wyrmish activities were jettisoned. So pick what you want.

Personally, I like the early editions a little bit better in their portrayal of the Garou as an exhausted people prone to moral compromises. I particularly liked the cynical and pragmatic nature of the Bone Gnawers as a tribe which would do a lot of questionable activities.

[Koronus]

The other alternative would be that the city is ruled by one that achieved Golconda or right now there is an enlightent cainite in the city doing the negotiations because he thinks in this city some are able to be shown the right path.
I suggest this because in the V20 corerulebook it says that Golconda vampires are clean and not wyrm tainted and so the garou let them be.

[heinrich]

I suggest this because in the V20 corerulebook it says that Golconda vampires are clean and not wyrm tainted and so the garou let them be.

Crossover rules state that even humanity above 7 would not register as wyrm-tainted to basic sense wyrm. Other gifts still register the vampire as vampire, though.

And, as with the "sense wyrm isn't detect evil" sidebar from the Storyteller's Handbook (iirc), this doesn't make the vampire okay in the eyes of the Garou. The "Silver Record" book, iirc, details the vampire origin from the view of the garou and in any case, vampires are to be destroyed simply for being parasites. That is inherent to them, and even Golconda surpresses that, but doesn't change their nature completely.

That said, Garou believe vampires to be master manipulators, so, how would a vampire convince them of the legitimacy of Golconda and an being "good"? They would always assume they are being punked. But, if they have bigger problems to take care of, they probably don't care what the vampire, who pretends to be a good human, does...

[Koronus]

Crossover rules state that even humanity above 7 would not register as wyrm-tainted to basic sense wyrm. Other gifts still register the vampire as vampire, though.

And, as with the "sense wyrm isn't detect evil" sidebar from the Storyteller's Handbook (iirc), this doesn't make the vampire okay in the eyes of the Garou. The "Silver Record" book, iirc, details the vampire origin from the view of the garou and in any case, vampires are to be destroyed simply for being parasites. That is inherent to them, and even Golconda surpresses that, but doesn't change their nature completely.

That said, Garou believe vampires to be master manipulators, so, how would a vampire convince them of the legitimacy of Golconda and an being "good"? They would always assume they are being punked. But, if they have bigger problems to take care of, they probably don't care what the vampire, who pretends to be a good human, does...

Well it seems to whas retconed by V20. There it is stated that for Garou vampires that reached golconda are not damned but sacred and no garou would himself in a way with one of those. So I think yeah a vampire who reached golconda could try to convince the garou, that other vampires can be turned to good too.

[The Cat Came Back]

Is this one singular human so important to the werewolves in some way that they would betray the alliance with the vampires in order to "rescue" the person? Maybe some extremely idealistic werewolf thinks so, on principle and goes behind the pack's back to do it... but in general, werewolves kind of... don't really care about humans all that much.

If the alliance ever breaks down though you can bet 'that poor enslaved human" will be part of the examples used to justify murdering a bunch of vampires!

[Lian]

Well it seems to whas retconed by V20. There it is stated that for Garou vampires that reached golconda are not damned but sacred and no garou would himself in a way with one of those. So I think yeah a vampire who reached golconda could try to convince the garou, that other vampires can be turned to good too.

Site Source.

Garou are barely ok with good PEOPLE. Kindred aren't people. Golconda isn't going to matter at all. Its just going to appear as another trick. That's all "this leech doesn't smell of the wyrm" means to them. Its a vampire trick.

That being SAID, People politic with their enemies. That doesn't mean people LIKE eachother but there were mountains of treaties between the USSR and the USA. If the Kindred are going to offer a deal that can be enforced by Garou powers.. well there's worse wyrm spawn to hit first.

Hell maybe the prince will just protect theirown? "Any kindred with one of these tags is mine.. anything else you can kill openly" that makes it easier for him to scourge, helps keep out the Sabbat and troublesome independents... puts the anarchs in their place... its a win win for him you know until some garou frenzies and kills someone who matters but hey.... everything is temporary.

[Koronus]

If you are okay with the german version V20 Corerulebook Seite 300.
Just at Golconda und andere Wege der Erlösung.

[Lian]

If you are okay with the german version V20 Corerulebook Seite 300.
Just at Golconda und andere Wege der Erlösung.

It says in the v20 book that Garou care about humanity whatsoever?

[heinrich]

Well it seems to whas retconed by V20. There it is stated that for Garou vampires that reached golconda are not damned but sacred and no garou would himself in a way with one of those. So I think yeah a vampire who reached golconda could try to convince the garou, that other vampires can be turned to good too.

Is there a page reference to that?

In any case, Golconda is incredibly hard to achieve, with humanity 10 being a part of the process, iirc. Believing that this could be a solution for vampires in general is delusional, and it would be wrong for a humanity 10 vampire to intentionally mislead the garou, especially since letting a vampire live who doesn't actually try to reach Golconda can have fatal consequences for any human bystander.

EDIT: Sorry, saw the page reference was already give after posting.

And here is the problem:
English version:
As the stories go, Golconda is known only to a few among the undead, and these no longer participate in the Jyhad or the society of their kind. They live in the wild places, at one with the beasts of the field and the birds of the sky. Even the werewolves leave the masters of Golconda be. Vampires in Golconda occasionally enter the larger society of undead, seeking disciples whom they can guide along the path to Golconda — but only in secret, for they wish nothing to do with the Jyhad.


German verison:
Laut der Geschichten wissen nur wenige Untote um Golconda, und diese nehmen nicht mehr am Dschihad oder anderen gesellschaftlichen Verstrickungen ihrer Art teil. Sie leben an unzugänglichen, wilden Orten, eins mit den Tieren des Feldes und den Vögeln im Himmel. Selbst die Werwölfe lassen die Meister Golcondas ihrer Wege ziehen, denn sie sind nicht verdammt, sondern heilig. Vampire in Golconda kehren gelegentlich in die größere Gesellschaft der Untoten zurück. Sie suchen Jünger, die sie auf dem Pfad, der zu Golconda führt, leiten können – aber nur insgeheim, denn der Dschihad missfällt ihnen und sie wollen nichts mit ihm zu tun haben.

The critical part is the red part of the statement, that says:
Even the werewolves leave the mastersof Golconda be, because they aren't damned, but holy.

So, at this point I would write a letter to Ulisses Games and ask for my money back, because you paied for a translated V20 book by White Wolf and not their own version of what Vampire should be like.
Or maybe that part was in an early version of V20 that Ulisses used as base for the translation, but was later removed. I can't tell, but maybe someone here has older pdfs and can check.


In any case, V20 details werewolves as antagonists in a vampire setting. I doesn't really translate that good to Garou in a WtA setting.

[MyWifeIsScary]

The Vampire Garou and the Werewolf Lupine are the same thing, only from different persectives.

Generally, A Garou doesn't want the vampire to hypnotize them or anything like that, so the smartest thing to do is kill the vampire before it can speak. If you let the vampire speak, you can be compromised, and you put those around you in danger. Thus, werewolves encountering a stray vampire should shoot first, not ask questions. To vampires, that just seems like savagery.

Now, for Bone Gnawers, the key thing is that they don't want vampires to know that a population of them exists in the city. And so they overlook vampiric predation on the grounds that acting up and fighting a vampire for feeding will potentially call vampiric attention to a big threat within their city. Suddenly the homeless are experiencing a crackdown and getting murdered. Kinfolk are getting hurt. The only way Gnawers can really stop vampires from feeding on their kin is by keeping them together so that a vampire looking for a lonely target must look elsewhere. The only way BG can really kill vampires who attack their kin is to make deals with nosferatu; Domain is claimed, any vampire who enters deserves whatever fate they get by law.

The BG might decide to kill a particularly egregious vampire, but they'll try make it look like a normal Hunter attack.

[heinrich]

The Vampire Garou and the Werewolf Lupine are the same thing, only from different persectives.

Werewolves/Lupines in Vampire are antagonists, they have one job: to enrich the Story for the Vampire PCs. W:tA Garou are protagonists of their own games.
V20 doesn't detail the whole garou culture and believes in detail because they are irrelevant for the most part. Their abilities and an idea what their role in the V:tM story is, is enough for most STs. If an ST wants to incorporate W:tA's garou into a V:tM game, fine. But beware, V:tM isn't necessarily written with all of the W:tA background in mind.

So, it isn't just a different perspective. Werewolves in a V:tM book are 8bit pixel monsters compared to a HD quality rendering that W:tA does for werewolves. In both cases you recognise the werewolf, but the difference is in the details, not the angle