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Garou v kindred alliance

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  • #16
    I totally glossed over the bone gnawer aspect of this. I'll definitely add it to one of my preexisting side plots. Keep the players on their toes.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      The Vampire Garou and the Werewolf Lupine are the same thing, only from different persectives.

      Generally, A Garou doesn't want the vampire to hypnotize them or anything like that, so the smartest thing to do is kill the vampire before it can speak. If you let the vampire speak, you can be compromised, and you put those around you in danger. Thus, werewolves encountering a stray vampire should shoot first, not ask questions. To vampires, that just seems like savagery.

      Now, for Bone Gnawers, the key thing is that they don't want vampires to know that a population of them exists in the city. And so they overlook vampiric predation on the grounds that acting up and fighting a vampire for feeding will potentially call vampiric attention to a big threat within their city. Suddenly the homeless are experiencing a crackdown and getting murdered. Kinfolk are getting hurt. The only way Gnawers can really stop vampires from feeding on their kin is by keeping them together so that a vampire looking for a lonely target must look elsewhere. The only way BG can really kill vampires who attack their kin is to make deals with nosferatu; Domain is claimed, any vampire who enters deserves whatever fate they get by law.

      The BG might decide to kill a particularly egregious vampire, but they'll try make it look like a normal Hunter attack.
      Do the Garou even think a vampire could hypnotize them? Asking from a position of not knowing here. I never got a sense of werewolves taking vampires seriously as anything other than unseen plotters and driving forces behind city expansions. And some players I knew back in the day were adamant a Garou could not be blood-bound, was immune to mental domination and so forth, so I'm wondering.
      Last edited by Konigheim Horror; 07-12-2020, 02:13 PM.

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      • #18
        If Werewolves didn't take vampires seriously they would've tried to wipe them out specifically, yet they have not. Garou tell a lot of stories, of successes and failures, I'm sure they've told tales of struggles with vampires, of compromised werewolves going home to slaughter their families. These stories are likely both many and embellished. In the grand scheme of things, Vampires probably seem like a lot of difficult work for little to gain (Though that may be in part due to how easily vampires reproduce) but vampires on a whole aren't doing more damage than, say, the Koch brothers or Murdoch or the Sacklers or whatever...


        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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        • #19
          Hm. Never heard of those stories. Mind you, they sound really interesting.

          Could it be that perhaps the situation shares some similarities to Kindred/Wan Kuei relations? As in, the Wan Kuei think traipsing through Europe and breaking the Masquerade is totally easy and cool, because the Prince of Berlin brainwashed the young ones who went there? Young Garou meet only the young leeches and think they're pushovers, while the old guard knows how dangerous they can be but is too prideful to admit it?

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          • #20
            You don't even need to be an elder. All you need is Dominate 2 (I do wonder if Animalism 1 works) and a good dice pool and you can send a Garou back to his sept to murder or sabbotage (or things like "send your family over this way"). If you're using normal rules and you get a good roll you can even have the Garou tell you everything about his sept or... Dominate 3 can completely change memories, presence can make the werewolf very willing to...

            The Mental fuckery of even neonates is not to be underestimated. But also, the physical prowess of vampires can be surprising for the vampire's size but is usually inferior to a pup's crinos. Therefore if a Werewolf has to deal with a vampire, it's actually safer to go with violence than diplomacy. But then in a war the Garou would always lose so... best avoid one another.

            Garou have a whole fifth of their people dedicated to telling stories. I Imagine they know a lot of vampire legends, though a lot of myths come with that.


            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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            • #21
              Well, with the difficutly of Dominate 2 being the current Willpower, the chances are that some Vamps scored more than two successes and therefore could make the garou do something strange but not directly dangerous. With five successes even something that is indirectly harmful is possible. That said, V20 puts a limit to the scenes where Dominate can be applied: "Both Kindred and target must befree from distraction, since Mesmerize requires intense concentration and precise wording to be effective."

              In any way, garou will certainly have stories about the Mindcontrol and swiftness of vampires, as Presence, Dominate and Celerity are the common ways a vampire might elude a garou and this makes the campfire stroy.

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              • #22
                So, in other words, players claiming Garou are unaffected by mental manipulation by vampires were just full of it?

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                • #23
                  Yes. Garou have never been immune to vampiric powers. They likely have additional protections that ordinary humans don't have because of their Gifts. But they can be affected by Dominate, Presence, and the blood bond. In fact, there have been several mentions of that in both the Vampire and Werewolf sourcebooks.

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                  • #24
                    players overstate abilities like mindblock... very, very few werewolves are going to have mindblock, considering it's a tribe specific rank 5.

                    question: does animalism 1 work against garou?


                    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                    • #25
                      There is a rule somewhere, that just like with the Embrace, the garou has to make a Gnosis roll when first tasting vampire blood (with the intend to blood-bind, not when sinking the teeth in to rip the corpse apart). If the roll succeeds the garou is vomitting the blood and furthermore immune to blood-bonds. If the roll fails, the garou can be blood bound just like a human.

                      Frenzy, in V20, grants some protection against Dominate (+2 difficulty, iirc).

                      Garou aren't really what V20 calls Mortals, with the capital M. Their regeneration and healing for example would slowly regenerate Visissitude alterations. And garou probably wouldn't or shouldn't be instantly killed by Thanatosis shrinking the victims head.

                      Also, Obfuscate doesn't extend into the Penumbra, so a garou peeking from the penumbra can see obfuscated vampires.

                      Crossover rules aren't always what the authors thought about, when desining powers, so ST discresion in necessary.
                      Last edited by heinrich; 07-16-2020, 03:43 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        players overstate abilities like mindblock... very, very few werewolves are going to have mindblock, considering it's a tribe specific rank 5.
                        Rank Four, and slightly more open, though mostly just to those who really hate vampires (those principally being the Swords of Night camp of the Silent Striders). There are also Gifts that can make mind control more difficult that are much easier to get, like the Stargazers and common Beast Court Rank 2 one that drives up the difficulty of mind control but has to be activated at cost (as opposed to just blanket increasing the diff to 9 for all time), and there's a Rank 3 Metis Gift that shuts out all mental and emotional control for the scene, Shell.

                        question: does animalism 1 work against garou?
                        Per the Revised ST Handbook, Feral Whispers can allow vampires to use wolf-speech with Garou.

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                        • #27
                          There is also a rank 1 gift that allows to focus on a specific task, which one could argue, would make it difficult to dominate or presence someone to abandon this task. Also, Resist Fear would help against Ppesence, by raising the difficulty, iirc.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                            Also, Obfuscate doesn't extend into the Penumbra, so a garou peeking from the penumbra can see obfuscated vampires.
                            While I agree that Obfuscate does not extend into the Penumbra, I think there is a caveat.

                            Persons in the Realm don't normally show up in the Penumbra. Only a few rare "spiritually advanced" individuals do so. So Garou can't normally see vampires in the Penumbra anyway. (It isn't like the Shadowlands where Wraiths do see the real world around them and are affected by the Rule of Ouch.) This only comes into play if the Garou decides to Peek from the Umbra into the Realm.

                            When a Garou peeks from the Penumbra into the Realm, they aren't looking in the Umbra. They are extending their senses into the Realm. They are no longer sensing what is in the Penumbra around them and are, in fact, completely oblivious in the Penumbra at that point. The Garou is incapable of giving or receiving communication, and it is said his enemies in the Umbra can act unopposed. That seems to me that the Garou - for any mental or sensing purposes - is no longer "there" even though his body is. It's like when someone astral projects and abandons his body - he doesn't know if anything happens to it. Peeking is much the same way.

                            Furthermore, their sensing of the Realm is much less than what it would normally be - what they sense is slightly distorted, monochromatic without color, and without fine details. Only scent is unimpeded.

                            I understand Obfuscate is actually a Mental discipline which effects people's minds, instead of actual camouflage or cover. So one can argue that the Garou - being in the Umbra - is unaffected. However, the vampire does not need to be actively imposing Obfuscate on known people. Once it is on, it is on and affects everyone - even if the vampire doesn't know that they are there, or if the person suddenly enters the area the obfuscated vampire is in. So it seems to me that once a Garou decides to peek into the Realm, there is an argument to be made his mind becomes affected because his mind and senses are present in the Realm (since they certainly aren't in the Penumbra).

                            I am sure there is some crossover ruling somewhere that says that Obfuscate doesn't work. But I question whether that should be the case. Often crossover rulings were unofficial, not extensively playtested, and not well thought out. Now that I've given this some thought, I really question if the logic holds up.

                            If my ST stated that, I wouldn't waste much time contesting the ruling. But I think I would at least bring it up for group discussion. But now I'm not sure what I would rule myself. I'm currently thinking I'd rule against it. I might allow a spirit Charm like Realm Sense "see" the obfuscated vampire because that works on different principles.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                              Yes. Garou have never been immune to vampiric powers. They likely have additional protections that ordinary humans don't have because of their Gifts. But they can be affected by Dominate, Presence, and the blood bond. In fact, there have been several mentions of that in both the Vampire and Werewolf sourcebooks.
                              in most editions, they are virtually immune to dominate since they just have to break eye contact or fight in frenzy,
                              (some elder powers allow the vampire to dominate without eye contact, and some rule in v20 allow to dominate without eye contact at +3 diff)

                              garou can roll rage to resist dominate and presence (edit: turns out I'm wrong),

                              presence can also be resisted with willpower,

                              blood bond is useless,
                              you can just spend a willpower point to succeed on the Gnosis roll,
                              and even if you fail the roll, it's just a level one blood bond,
                              getting a full bond is unrealistic outside of very niche cases

                              Last edited by Pleiades; 07-19-2020, 06:30 AM.


                              -

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                                in most editions, they are virtually immune to dominate since they just have to break eye contact
                                (...)
                                This is not that easy to do if they are walked in by (or walk into) a Vampire, especially if they are unaware of who they are facing. And Garou in general are not persons who would avert their gaze.

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