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thoughts on how V20 disciplines should work when targeting Garou in a W20 game

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Well, the Presence write-up completely skips that anyone can use (with difficulty) WP to at least temporarily overcome it.
    Is it actually true that you can spend a Willpower point to resist the effects of Presence? If this is true, it's not an option my pack was given the last time a leech used Presence on them. I'll have to remember it the next time it comes up!

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    • #17
      Spend a WP and make a diff 8 WP roll.

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      • #18
        Okay next question: in combat, in what order should actions be resolved, when the werewolf is using rage for extra actions and the vampire is using celerity for extra actions?

        And feel free to answer with "rules as written" or with "how it should be done". I'd like to hear about both.

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        • #19
          RAW, W20 only: You resolve all a character's actions on their turn in the initiative roster baring defensive actions.
          RAW, W20 and V20 if you feel like each doing their own thing: Rage actions happen on a character's turn, but Celerity actions happen in a second Initiative go at the end of the main round.
          How it should be done: Everyone takes one action (normal multiple actions or magical ones) in Initiative order until they're out of actions.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            RAW, W20 only: You resolve all a character's actions on their turn in the initiative roster baring defensive actions.
            RAW, W20 and V20 if you feel like each doing their own thing: Rage actions happen on a character's turn, but Celerity actions happen in a second Initiative go at the end of the main round.
            How it should be done: Everyone takes one action (normal multiple actions or magical ones) in Initiative order until they're out of actions.
            Actually, W20 also does extra Rage actions after the normal turn(s), just like V20 celerity (and revised werewolf). See page 266, 'spending Rage'. And yes, it sadly does *not* get specifically explained like that in some more obvious spots that also explain extra actions, like Page 233 / 234 :|
            Usual WoD-corebook problems.

            Edit: Even more "actually", the W20 extra actions pretty much match your 'How it should be done' section, with initiative order and everything.
            Edit Edit: So does V20. See page 272 in V20 core. Your "how it should be done" is the V20/W20 rules
            Last edited by Ambrosia; 08-04-2020, 10:55 AM.


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            • #21
              OK, yeah, missed that passage that W20 has Rage happen at the end.

              Neither text though, specifies that you split Rage/Celerity actions into multiple series of initiative cycles. The way it's phrased is that if you have 3 Rage actions and the highest init, you do your normal action, everyone else goes, you get your 3 Rage actions if you didn't spend any on defense, and then anyone else with Rage actions takes theirs.

              Additionally, none of them do what I use, which was the DA Revised method, where the source of actions doesn't matter. You figure out how many actions you get, and the initiative cycle goes around until everyone is out of actions. If a highly skilled mortal declares three actions, a werewolf declares one regular action and two Rage actions, and a vampire declares two normal actions and one Celerity action:

              RAW:

              Mortal does all three,
              Werewolf does one,
              Vampire does two,
              Werewolf does two,
              Vampire does one.

              How I do it:

              Mortal does one,
              Werewolf does one,
              Vampire does one,
              Repeat two more times.

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              • #22
                Ahh, yes, I see. So essentially the supernatural extra actions are not really extra actions, but simply a removal of the penalties for the multiple actions the supernaturals do.
                That's how DAV20 does it as well.

                Personally I think it kind of depends on the multiple actions you do, or rather their timing - an example that stuck with me was one from...the M20 books I think, where an example of multiple actions was driving and shooting at another car in a car chase at the same time.
                So in a way that's more a simultaneous multi-action kinda thing that should probably be handled within the same turn of a player/NPC, vs. a sequential one. I'm just not sure if differentiation those overcomplicates things or not.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                  Ahh, yes, I see. So essentially the supernatural extra actions are not really extra actions, but simply a removal of the penalties for the multiple actions the supernaturals do.
                  The depends sligtly on the specific iteration of the system and how many actions a character could do without supernatural effects; there are plenty of ways you could not have enough dice to perform X actions, but you could with Celerity/Rage/etc. But realistically the difference between 6 dice split between 3 actions, and spending 2 Rage for 3 actions is more than big enough to represent supernatural actions however we want to classify them.

                  So in a way that's more a simultaneous multi-action kinda thing that should probably be handled within the same turn of a player/NPC, vs. a sequential one. I'm just not sure if differentiation those overcomplicates things or not.
                  It's possible to do without radically changing how the rules work in action, though it requires being much more precise in your language than the WoD books tend to be.

                  Something I came up with awhile ago on this matter is:

                  "Compound Actions" as what you're calling simultaneous multi-actions. They count as one action for the purposes of multiple actions. They involve one rolled action, and any number of normally unrolled actions as the character is willing to/can handle (the standard stipulation that some of these things should be rolled in tense situations can be waived, though the ST can call for a Sequential Action if they feel circumstances dictate it). Each unrolled action added to a compound action imparts a -X penalty to the final dice-pool of the Compound Action. Failures only apply to the rolled action, but botches apply to all actions included. The total penalty also applies to any action taken in any subsequent Sequential Action. Compound Actions cannot be part of any supernaturally generated extra actions.

                  "Sequential Actions" follow the standard multiple action rules. Players can choose to roll a Compound Action as a Sequential Action at the risk of being interrupted by other character actions; generally done with supernatural multiple actions for better dice-pools.

                  The value of X needs to be adjusted for which edition's multiple action rules you're using, and how harsh you want to be (1 or 2 is generally plenty for me).

                  So if you're character is trying to drive and shoot once in their turn, it's a simple Compound Action (shooting is a rolled action, driving is normally unrolled even if rolled under stress), and you simply take a -X for trying to due both. A failure just means the shot misses but the car is still on the road. A botch is bad news for both shooting and crashing.

                  If the ST decides the driving part includes something that should be rolled separately, such as keeping the car steady after being rammed into by a pursing car, it becomes a Sequential Action and is handled as such.

                  If the player wants to drive and shoot twice, it's two Compound Actions as part of a Sequential Action, with the second shot having the -X penalty from the first applied to it as well.

                  If the player wants to roll to maintain control after getting rammed, and drive and shoot, it's a Sequential Action with a Drive action first, and then a Compound Action second.

                  As a general guideline on whether or not to invoke a Sequential and Compound action: a Compound Action should consist of either things that are happening at the same time (ex: ducking behind cover to avoid being shot at while hacking) or be part of one smooth series of events that have to rely on each other to succeed (ex: running at someone to tackle them, drawing a weapon and firing). Sequential Actions don't depend on each other working to be possible; even if situational order might matter. Whether you hit or miss with an attack doesn't matter to whether or not you can take a defensive action as well.

                  IME this works better with a Revised or DAV20 approach to multiple action penalties but hits a snag with splitting dice pools and players allocating dice to each action.

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