Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Chances of W5 being Forsaken Reskinned?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Chances of W5 being Forsaken Reskinned?

    Now I will admit that I know way more bout WoD(Masquerade, Apocalypse, Ascension, etc) then I do bout CoD(Requiem, Forsaken, Awakening, etc). But IMO V5 is basically Requiem Reskinned. But I think for Masquerade that was a good thing. When I first learned of Requiem I did think that it was a better game for the most part then Masquerade. But when I learned of Forsaken, I didn't like it. Not all. The things bout Apocalypse that I grew to love was no where,anywhere, in it. Now I am not saying Forsaken is a bad game. It's just not MY GAME for werewolves. None of the Tribes "clicked" with me. The down sizing of the number of Tribes felt like I was short changed. The depth of the Spirit World was also gone. The Shadow imo is just not as exciting as the Umbra. Again, I am not bashing Forsaken, just listing things that in my opinion turned me off for the game.

    Now with that all being said, does anyone else wonder if that they are going to basically take Forsaken and reskin it and call it W5? Drop Gnosis and call the spiritual power score Primal Urge? Add in Harmony as a measure on how balanced spiritually a character is? And included Touchstones (Forsaken actually calls those something different but Idrc exact phrase)? Imo Apocalypse really doesn't needing retooling, just smoothing.
    Last edited by Mahjemm01; 08-11-2020, 03:11 PM.

  • #2
    Be amazing if they did


    You've been playing around the magic that is black
    But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

    Comment


    • #3
      See idk how I feel bout that. For the most part we are talking bout "crunch" not fluff. But I am happy with sticking with Gnosis instead of Primal Urge. I don't see a need for Harmony or Touchstones. I do hope they stick with Forsaken and Masquerade using Resolve and Composure instead of Perception and Appearance though. I will admit that my knowledge for Forsaken is very limited, so I don't know what other little things that they could possibly incorporate from it to Apocalypse. But the biggest thing that I hope that they completely leave alone is the Umbra. As I said, I feel Shadow is no where as interesting or as deep as the Umbra. Now I will say I am familiar with Shadow. I run a Awakening game.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well someone clue me: did Forsaken originally address widely known mechanical issues with Apocalypse?

        I know there was a thing about WoD's action economy being weird as hell, something that was addressed in the changes with V5's Celerity. I presume that would hint into changes to Rage. Otherwise, nothing comes to mind of any huge mechanical issues specific to Apocalypse.

        Comment


        • #5
          Will admit that I am clueless bout the WoD action economy being weird. I have had no issues with Apocalypse action economy. Imo it runs just fine. Lol. I haven't delved into V5 Masquerade rules and tbh haven't read up on Celerity. For simplicity, I stick with V20 for Leeches in my Apocalypse. Now you have me curious bout this "issue" that Apocalypse had with action economy lol.

          Comment


          • #6
            I think V5 missed the mark in terms of taking inspiration from VtR for mechanical ideas. I don't think it really did much to change the setting to be closer to Requiem, and in part that means a lot of the mechanics didn't translate neatly (Blood Potency is pretty clunky when layered on top of Generation) or successfully (Touchstones). But V5 doesn't have multiple co-existing Covenants, a lack of global or multinational controlling conspiracies, or lots of other little details that make VtR a different game.

            I hope the W5 team, being different enough from the V5 team, will recognize this and do better if they opt to draw as much mechanical inspiration from Forsaken for trying to do a thorough revision of the rules compared to W20 little touch ups.

            Originally posted by Mahjemm01 View Post
            The down sizing of the number of Tribes felt like I was short changed.
            While I highly doubt W5 is going to do this (V5 didn't remove any Clans, even if they squished some Bloodlines together), and I doubt W5 is going to risk the backlash of saving some of the Tribes for supplements, I really wish WtA would lose a few Tribes. There are way too many for the internal logic of the game, and they clearly only exist to promote shallow stereotypes (many of which have aged incredibly poorly over the years).

            I think WtA would be a much stronger game with less Tribes that are more archetypal, and then have sub-Tribal (or even cross-Tribal) groups of some sorta to represent the strong regional variations.

            For example have the "Ice Wolves" that share the same mechanics across the globe, but in Europe the dominant group call themselves the Get of Fenris, and in the Americas the dominant group call themselves the Wendigo, and despite having so much in common they really don't like each other.

            That would preserve the feel of the WtA setting, while vastly simplifying the mechanics, and even making it easier on how to slot in weird things like the Siberakh.

            The depth of the Spirit World was also gone. The Shadow imo is just not as exciting as the Umbra.
            It's not really an apples to apples comparison. The CofD opted to have lots of different dimensions so each game line can add or use existing ones as appropriate, instead of the single Umbra trying to encompass everything in Werewolf, Mage, Changeling, Wraith, and so on.

            I do think we're going to see something closer to the Hisil than the Umbra in W5 though, because that's more like how the Umbra was when WtA first started and before it started getting bigger and bigger. The Penumbra and Middle Umbra are already plenty for most WtA games; whether or not the Dark, High, and Deep Umbra all get included under those designations or like CofD get broken up into more distinct planes.

            Now with that all being said, does anyone else wonder if that they are going to basically take Forsaken and reskin it and call it W5?
            Not really, but I don't think it's fair to say that happened in V5. I wholly expect W5 to have elements from Forsaken in it though.

            Drop Gnosis and call the spiritual power score Primal Urge?
            Not sure they'll call it Primal Urge, but Gnosis makes no sense for WtA. Gnosis in the must broad sense is wisdom and skill gained by experience, not animist connection to the spiritual world. It's definitely part of WtA lexicon that could use a redo.

            Add in Harmony as a measure on how balanced spiritually a character is?
            Doubtful. Even if they do opt to include something of this sort, Harmony doesn't really fit WtA's themes. I suspect if we see something in this area of the game, it will be a streamlining of Renown away from a point accumulation exercise. A more fluid Renown system more in line with the "morality" meters rather than book keeping could be a good change.

            And included Touchstones (Forsaken actually calls those something different but Idrc exact phrase)?
            Forsaken 2e uses Touchstones, but they're relatively minor elements compared to some of the other CofD games. What tends to change name from game to game are the Virtue/Vice equivalents.

            If W5 uses Touchstones, I hope they'll take a look at things besides Forsaken... as I've mentioned elsewhere the Deviant Touchstone system could be a very evocative thing to add to WtA.

            Imo Apocalypse really doesn't needing retooling, just smoothing.
            WtA was my second WoD game, and first WoD purchase... it needs a retooling badly. My confidence in W5 is slim, because I didn't like V5 at all and I know the plans are for W5 to be built on the same rules chassis, but there's enough potential in V5 that W5 could be done well. I can type up a rather long laundry list of things WtA does poorly.

            Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
            Well someone clue me: did Forsaken originally address widely known mechanical issues with Apocalypse?
            Some? Though a lot of other issues got addressed over time in Forsaken rather than off the bat.

            The action economy issues were definitely fixed as Forsaken doesn't use Rage as a stat (rather it's a state analogous to Frenzy), any multiple actions are only available through purchase (and rarely).
            Avoiding imbalanced creation issues, and creation traps caused by how Auspice/Breed/Tribe generated your starting Rage/Gnosis/Willpower.
            Totem creation rules are something WtA should have gotten decades ago.
            Lodges, who have Totems as well, help differentiate things that would fall under Camps in WtA between philosophic/social groups and mystic ones that get access to Gifts/Rites/etc.
            A tighter Gift system (1e is a bit too close to Vampire Disciplines, but 2e fixed that) with Gifts grouped by theme and Auspices/Tribes favoring themes, rather than the sprawling massive mess of Gifts from WtA.
            A better ritual system that ensures rituals are actually worth investment in and fluff rites are either shunted off to innate powers (you don't have to learn a rite to keep your clothes from shredding), or part of other powers.
            Five Renown Categories so you don't have the funky Renown Charts to qualify for Ranks; each Auspice has their own Renown to specialize in (though 2e Renown is much better handled).
            Each of the five forms is given a more distinct purpose with benefits to different activities (again, better executed in 2e).
            Tribes have spiritual Bans from their Totems instead of a the weird (though fortunately optional) flaws WtA used.
            Wolf-blooded have a much stronger place in Uratha society by having better mechanics than just being good breeding stock (another thing that's even more true in 2e).

            Comment


            • #7
              I hope they don’t use they word W***digo that’s like considered a real bad thing to say in certain tribes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Obviously its going to be a reskinned Exalted, because combat.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
                  I hope they don’t use they word W***digo that’s like considered a real bad thing to say in certain tribes.
                  I didn't know that. What would be a good replacement name?
                  Last edited by Erinys; 08-11-2020, 08:05 PM. Reason: nvm


                  I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                  Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I usually refer to them as (The Children of) Younger Brother or when I want to put some flavor on it stuff like ‘The Ice Hearts’ or ‘The Winter Storm’ and things of that nature; given their association with warrior, cold, and wind motifs. Although I could also see something like ‘The Season Walkers’ making sense given their in-universe totem lore and perhaps the evolution to the name ‘The Ice Hearts’ is emblematic over their grief over the loss of Middle Brother.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I like Ice Hearts best. Younger Brother was always a title or nickname, IMO.

                      Are Croatan, U***na, Sasquatch, or We-Chon also taboo names?


                      Edit: Also, I don't want to smush tribes together. They're supposed to be individual cultures, not broad mythic archetypes. As it is, Hakken and Siberakh ought to be considered separate tribes. The Hakken used to have a separate tribal totem, and the Siberakh still do I think.
                      Last edited by Erinys; 08-12-2020, 12:04 AM.


                      I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                      Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Uktena is, but not the same extent.

                        One of the suggested name changes was "Bane Tender".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yeah, to my understanding the canon name for Older’s Brother time is not taboo in the same way that Younger Brother’s is, but it’s still meant to only be invoked in certain specific ritual fashions iirc. The names of the Abrahamic G-d might be a good analogue.

                          I’m not familiar with any similar tradition surrounding ‘Sasquatch’.

                          I do also like ‘Bane Tender’ as a name for Older Brother, although I worry it gives the game away to quickly. Perhaps ‘River Serpents’ or ‘Rite Binders’.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            I think V5 missed the mark in terms of taking inspiration from VtR for mechanical ideas. I don't think it really did much to change the setting to be closer to Requiem, and in part that means a lot of the mechanics didn't translate neatly (Blood Potency is pretty clunky when layered on top of Generation) or successfully (Touchstones). But V5 doesn't have multiple co-existing Covenants, a lack of global or multinational controlling conspiracies, or lots of other little details that make VtR a different game.

                            I hope the W5 team, being different enough from the V5 team, will recognize this and do better if they opt to draw as much mechanical inspiration from Forsaken for trying to do a thorough revision of the rules compared to W20 little touch ups.



                            While I highly doubt W5 is going to do this (V5 didn't remove any Clans, even if they squished some Bloodlines together), and I doubt W5 is going to risk the backlash of saving some of the Tribes for supplements, I really wish WtA would lose a few Tribes. There are way too many for the internal logic of the game, and they clearly only exist to promote shallow stereotypes (many of which have aged incredibly poorly over the years).

                            I think WtA would be a much stronger game with less Tribes that are more archetypal, and then have sub-Tribal (or even cross-Tribal) groups of some sorta to represent the strong regional variations.

                            For example have the "Ice Wolves" that share the same mechanics across the globe, but in Europe the dominant group call themselves the Get of Fenris, and in the Americas the dominant group call themselves the Wendigo, and despite having so much in common they really don't like each other.

                            That would preserve the feel of the WtA setting, while vastly simplifying the mechanics, and even making it easier on how to slot in weird things like the Siberakh.



                            It's not really an apples to apples comparison. The CofD opted to have lots of different dimensions so each game line can add or use existing ones as appropriate, instead of the single Umbra trying to encompass everything in Werewolf, Mage, Changeling, Wraith, and so on.

                            I do think we're going to see something closer to the Hisil than the Umbra in W5 though, because that's more like how the Umbra was when WtA first started and before it started getting bigger and bigger. The Penumbra and Middle Umbra are already plenty for most WtA games; whether or not the Dark, High, and Deep Umbra all get included under those designations or like CofD get broken up into more distinct planes.



                            Not really, but I don't think it's fair to say that happened in V5. I wholly expect W5 to have elements from Forsaken in it though.



                            Not sure they'll call it Primal Urge, but Gnosis makes no sense for WtA. Gnosis in the must broad sense is wisdom and skill gained by experience, not animist connection to the spiritual world. It's definitely part of WtA lexicon that could use a redo.



                            Doubtful. Even if they do opt to include something of this sort, Harmony doesn't really fit WtA's themes. I suspect if we see something in this area of the game, it will be a streamlining of Renown away from a point accumulation exercise. A more fluid Renown system more in line with the "morality" meters rather than book keeping could be a good change.



                            Forsaken 2e uses Touchstones, but they're relatively minor elements compared to some of the other CofD games. What tends to change name from game to game are the Virtue/Vice equivalents.

                            If W5 uses Touchstones, I hope they'll take a look at things besides Forsaken... as I've mentioned elsewhere the Deviant Touchstone system could be a very evocative thing to add to WtA.



                            WtA was my second WoD game, and first WoD purchase... it needs a retooling badly. My confidence in W5 is slim, because I didn't like V5 at all and I know the plans are for W5 to be built on the same rules chassis, but there's enough potential in V5 that W5 could be done well. I can type up a rather long laundry list of things WtA does poorly.



                            Some? Though a lot of other issues got addressed over time in Forsaken rather than off the bat.

                            The action economy issues were definitely fixed as Forsaken doesn't use Rage as a stat (rather it's a state analogous to Frenzy), any multiple actions are only available through purchase (and rarely).
                            Avoiding imbalanced creation issues, and creation traps caused by how Auspice/Breed/Tribe generated your starting Rage/Gnosis/Willpower.
                            Totem creation rules are something WtA should have gotten decades ago.
                            Lodges, who have Totems as well, help differentiate things that would fall under Camps in WtA between philosophic/social groups and mystic ones that get access to Gifts/Rites/etc.
                            A tighter Gift system (1e is a bit too close to Vampire Disciplines, but 2e fixed that) with Gifts grouped by theme and Auspices/Tribes favoring themes, rather than the sprawling massive mess of Gifts from WtA.
                            A better ritual system that ensures rituals are actually worth investment in and fluff rites are either shunted off to innate powers (you don't have to learn a rite to keep your clothes from shredding), or part of other powers.
                            Five Renown Categories so you don't have the funky Renown Charts to qualify for Ranks; each Auspice has their own Renown to specialize in (though 2e Renown is much better handled).
                            Each of the five forms is given a more distinct purpose with benefits to different activities (again, better executed in 2e).
                            Tribes have spiritual Bans from their Totems instead of a the weird (though fortunately optional) flaws WtA used.
                            Wolf-blooded have a much stronger place in Uratha society by having better mechanics than just being good breeding stock (another thing that's even more true in 2e).
                            I like the Ice Wolves idea.


                            “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
                              Yeah, to my understanding the canon name for Older’s Brother time is not taboo in the same way that Younger Brother’s is, but it’s still meant to only be invoked in certain specific ritual fashions iirc. The names of the Abrahamic G-d might be a good analogue.

                              I’m not familiar with any similar tradition surrounding ‘Sasquatch’.

                              I do also like ‘Bane Tender’ as a name for Older Brother, although I worry it gives the game away to quickly. Perhaps ‘River Serpents’ or ‘Rite Binders’.
                              Thanks.

                              Bane Tenders is a camp and title, though. And Rite Binders just reinforces the idea that they're all about mysticism. I think I would call them Serpent-Wolves or Serpent Children. River Serpent I would use as the everyday/used-with-outsiders name of their tribal totem.

                              I know of a name that seems to refer to the same being (whom their totem is based on). I don't know if anyone knows if S*nt H**o is a taboo or acceptable name to use as a replacement.
                              Last edited by Erinys; 08-12-2020, 12:03 AM.


                              I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                              Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X