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Chances of W5 being Forsaken Reskinned?

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  • Originally posted by Damian May View Post

    Yeah, it must be a particular type of player. I've been running WtA for 25-ish years and its never come up as a point of issue in my games.
    I've seen it crop up here and there, more recently. This is why I'm glad that Forsaken and Apocalypse exist concurrently, as there are those who want to play werewolves more like the mythical monster with murkier themes and do not like the more structured and species-like nature of the garou.


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    • I like Apocalypse better, but only cause I’m more used to it.


      “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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      • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

        It's a sore point that they have to refute more often than any other tribe.

        Edit: And is specifically called out in an ooc section of their revised tribe book.
        Aaah! Thank you for clarifying!

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        • To answer to core point of this thread;

          I hope not, and not because I'm geared up to dislike W5. It is because we truly have found a good balance between Forsaken and Apocalypse.

          Players who want to play Apocalypse want; Epic scale adventures, deep looks into environmentalism and biology, discussions of human rights, playing as non-humans, deep lore and fully realised setting, truly epic gory fights, tribal politics and werewolves as a species.


          Players who want to play Forsaken want; More typical werewolves, much vaguer and uncertain setting, no pre-made alliances/enemies between supernaturals, more freedom to create unique settings, no greater werewolf nation, smaller focus stories that are more personal, more flexible tribes and much more horror focused spirit world.

          I love both games a lot, but I love them for different reasons. In WtA, an ancient creature getting youtube famous would be a massive issue, but in WtF it is simply a hilarious factoid about a poor curious thing (Quattuor is adorable.)


          As I have said many times before, WtA -needs- its extensive lore to function and give the players the full WtA experience. WtF can be played with little use of its lore but the core basics.

          To make WtA like WtF, you lose a lot of what makes WtA so interesting. It is clunky, sure, but personally I love the clunk.


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          • I agree that I would not want to see the core themes of WTA changed at all. Some stereotypes and derogatory things still need to be removed, some of the science about wolves and other animals needs updating, and the tribal weaknesses and Pure Breed fur patterns could use a total overhaul. But the core themes are the reason I love WTA, and a very cogent and pointed commentary on many of the most horrible problems caused by real world humans. WTF holds no attraction to me at all, except to mine for ideas to translate into WTA.

            I think perhaps the OP might have meant whether the mechanics of WTF should be used in W5.


            I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
            Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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            • When other threads talked about the "Requiem-ization of V5" it was very much a mechanics focused thing (not that it didn't stray into setting as the two are linked and all).

              V5 didn't reduce the main Clans to 5 (though they made the questionable decision of only including the original 7 in the core book and left the expanded 6 for supplements despite multiple editions of them being considered core material). V5 didn't radically alter the VtM factions to be more like the Covenants (V5 still presents most cities as primarily one Sect, with some presence of one or two of the others, rather than VtR's more open Covenant dynamics). And so on.

              The discussion was things like the changed Attribute spreads, reduced variables in each roll (even if that's more like Storyteller Revised aka Trinity 1e), the inclusion of Touchstones, Blood Potency, and so on.

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              • Originally posted by Erinys View Post
                I agree that I would not want to see the core themes of WTA changed at all. Some stereotypes and derogatory things still need to be removed, some of the science about wolves and other animals needs updating, and the tribal weaknesses and Pure Breed fur patterns could use a total overhaul. But the core themes are the reason I love WTA, and a very cogent and pointed commentary on many of the most horrible problems caused by real world humans. WTF holds no attraction to me at all, except to mine for ideas to translate into WTA.

                I think perhaps the OP might have meant whether the mechanics of WTF should be used in W5.
                Yeah the Dinosaur shifters have to be changed know that people know that Dinosaurs where birds and not reptiles.

                Wolves don’t have Omegas and Alphas

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                • Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

                  Yeah the Dinosaur shifters have to be changed know that people know that Dinosaurs where birds and not reptiles.
                  That depends on how you define clades, and also you have the Venn diagram relationship backward. All birds were dinosaurs, but not all dinosaurs were birds.

                  Wolves don’t have Omegas and Alphas
                  Wild wolves don't.

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                  • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                    That depends on how you define clades, and also you have the Venn diagram relationship backward. All birds were dinosaurs, but not all dinosaurs were birds.
                    And Dinosaurs are reptiles. Yes, birds are reptiles, in a cladistic sense.

                    If Konradleijon meant reptiles in the cold-blooded, scaly, featherless sense, then dinosaurs and pterosaurs weren't reptiles. But most of them weren't birds either.


                    I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                    Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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                    • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                      Players who want to play Apocalypse want; Epic scale adventures, deep looks into environmentalism and biology, discussions of human rights, playing as non-humans, deep lore and fully realised setting, truly epic gory fights, tribal politics and werewolves as a species.

                      Players who want to play Forsaken want; More typical werewolves, much vaguer and uncertain setting, no pre-made alliances/enemies between supernaturals, more freedom to create unique settings, no greater werewolf nation, smaller focus stories that are more personal, more flexible tribes and much more horror focused spirit world.
                      I think we need to be careful when we say things like "Players of X want this..." because nobody is qualified to speak for the entire player base. You can only speak for yourself and your gaming groups. Not even this board as a whole speaks for the player base because we're not necessarily representative of the entire player base. For example, while I now post on these forums, I never posted on the old White Wolf forums.

                      I say this because many of the things you've mentioned are not things I want or even particularly care for. I play Apocalypse, and don't play Forsaken. Yet I don't want epic scale adventures. I think the game too often seems like high fantasy rather than a world of earthly legends being true. I like things being more down to earth. I'm not sure what "deep looks" into environmentalism means. Yet even though I think some emphasis on protecting the wilderness is warranted, I think too much emphasis on environmental themes is bad for the game as it detracts from other things we can be doing in the setting. I'm not particularly interested in Captain Planet type games. I can't remember any discussion of human rights ever in any game I've been in, although there has certainly been moral dilemmas. Neither I nor my gaming buddies are particularly interested in playing non-humans (i.e. metis and lupus), although we're fine with it being an element in the setting. I do like much of the lore, tribal and sept politics, and the ability to expand the game into high drama in the umbra or Garou Nation when I want.

                      On the other hand, there are certainly things you mentioned about Forsaken that I do want in my Apocalypse games. I've never played Forsaken and have zero interest in it. But certainly there are some things I've hear about the setting that I've liked, and others that I have not.

                      I think the game is improved when it gives tools to players and STs to run the style of game they want. I think the setting is large enough it can accommodate all sorts of things. Both the way you play, the way I play, and the way other plays. But I do think they need to give more options somewhere - in the corebook, ST guide, or other sourcebooks - to incorporate some of the Forsaken elements you mentioned (albeit fitting the Apocalypse setting) as well as other elements not mentioned here.

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                      • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                        I think we need to be careful when we say things like "Players of X want this..." because nobody is qualified to speak for the entire player base.
                        Of course, I wasn't trying to say people want X, just that for me, those are things that make the settings different and potential deal breakers I've seen people have between settings.

                        Apologies that it sounded likke I was speaking for others.


                        My gallery.

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                        • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                          I think we need to be careful when we say things like "Players of X want this..." because nobody is qualified to speak for the entire player base. You can only speak for yourself and your gaming groups. Not even this board as a whole speaks for the player base because we're not necessarily representative of the entire player base. For example, while I now post on these forums, I never posted on the old White Wolf forums.

                          I say this because many of the things you've mentioned are not things I want or even particularly care for. I play Apocalypse, and don't play Forsaken. Yet I don't want epic scale adventures. I think the game too often seems like high fantasy rather than a world of earthly legends being true. I like things being more down to earth. I'm not sure what "deep looks" into environmentalism means. Yet even though I think some emphasis on protecting the wilderness is warranted, I think too much emphasis on environmental themes is bad for the game as it detracts from other things we can be doing in the setting. I'm not particularly interested in Captain Planet type games. I can't remember any discussion of human rights ever in any game I've been in, although there has certainly been moral dilemmas. Neither I nor my gaming buddies are particularly interested in playing non-humans (i.e. metis and lupus), although we're fine with it being an element in the setting. I do like much of the lore, tribal and sept politics, and the ability to expand the game into high drama in the umbra or Garou Nation when I want.

                          On the other hand, there are certainly things you mentioned about Forsaken that I do want in my Apocalypse games. I've never played Forsaken and have zero interest in it. But certainly there are some things I've hear about the setting that I've liked, and others that I have not.

                          I think the game is improved when it gives tools to players and STs to run the style of game they want. I think the setting is large enough it can accommodate all sorts of things. Both the way you play, the way I play, and the way other plays. But I do think they need to give more options somewhere - in the corebook, ST guide, or other sourcebooks - to incorporate some of the Forsaken elements you mentioned (albeit fitting the Apocalypse setting) as well as other elements not mentioned here.
                          About that their is a huge connection with Human right abuses and pollution.

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                          • Absolutely. Human rights abuses are a core part of industrial "progress".

                            Polluting factories, mine tailings, leaky pipelines, landfills, toxic waste, and nuclear waste are routinely put in communities of racially and/or economically oppressed people, so that the dominant groups don't have to suffer (or even hear about) the effects. It causes extreme health problems: congenital disabilities ("birth defects"), stillbirths, lots of nasty diseases, and now extra COVID vulnerability... plus the oil spills and chemical accidents also occur mostly in "sacrifice zones" inhabited by poor people and ethnic minorities. Those folks are also often living in the places most severely harmed by climate change, and most don't have the resources to move away. Then there's the "man camps" of non-Native men brought close to First Nation reservations to work pipelines and fracking rigs; some go raping and kidnapping Native American women in large numbers. And everywhere some tropical rainforest is being clearcut, there are disenfranchised native humans living there whose lives are being ruined as their homeland is stolen and literally destroyed.

                            Even the people who end up taking health-destroying jobs in coal mines, refineries, chemical plants, and factory farms are in some cases folks who don't have many other job options, especially in rural communities with collapsing economies - so they're also being exploited in a way. When the local fossil fuels or metals run out, companies sometimes just take all the money and abandon them (leaving the toxic waste behind).

                            If the people who profit and benefit the most from cheap fossil fuels and chemical products had to live with the pollution dumped in their own backyards and killing their own families, they might be less willing to keep using the stuff.

                            In WTA there's the added horror of banes coming to roost and breed in all these gutted industrial hellscapes and screwing around with the angry, desperate locals. And hey! when they're really desperate and despairing, not only are they more vulnerable to possession, but it's easier to tempt them to do more and more heinous things for the Wyrm, in return for medicine or jobs or money or food ... hey, Pentex has all those things!
                            Last edited by Erinys; 08-27-2020, 03:56 PM. Reason: trying to reduce rantingness


                            I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                            Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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                            • I didn't mean to go on a rant, sorry. To bring this more to "what could W5 look like" this question of human suffering could be a point of contention between tribes. I imagine many Garou really don't worry much about the suffering of non-Kinfolk humans. Bone Gnawers, Uktena, Wendigo, and maybe Children of Gaia could be trying to convince the other Garou this is something they should care about. On the other side of the debate, many Garou might say well, that's sad, but we have more important things to fight - not realizing that human suffering feeds the Wyrm. And of course the Red Talons would say They're human, collective guilt, they deserve it and they "allow" it to happen. But of course it would be boring if every werewolf followed the 'expected' attitude of their tribe or breed.

                              This is also something that could be a huge point of argument among Fera in poor, developing countries. On the one hand, how do you save forests and savannahs and wildlife, except stopping (killing?) the people who cut and plow and shoot and drill and mine? But must environmental protection come at the expense of poverty? Is poverty better than pollution? Poverty often drives people to cut trees and shoot wildlife and exhaust the soil, just to bring firewood and food to their families. If they can't get jobs working in a polluting industry, they either have to move to the scabs, or they turn to killing the land. Do you restart the Impergium... and make the locals really hate and fear the wild and the animals? Do you try to encourage ecotourism and all the tourists (and who knows what...) they may bring? What the heck do you do about population growth? What do you do about poaching, if the demand for parts is coming from another country altogether? Different Fera species live in different habitats, so you may even get shifters who want to protect their animal's land, even if that means the farmers go slash-and-burn somebody else's animal's habitat. Do the forest shifters get in fights with the grassland or wetland shifters?


                              I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                              Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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                              • Originally posted by Erinys View Post
                                Absolutely. Human rights abuses are a core part of industrial "progress".

                                Polluting factories, mine tailings, leaky pipelines, landfills, toxic waste, and nuclear waste are routinely put in communities of racially and/or economically oppressed people, so that the dominant groups don't have to suffer (or even hear about) the effects. It causes extreme health problems: congenital disabilities ("birth defects&quot, stillbirths, lots of nasty diseases, and now extra COVID vulnerability... plus the oil spills and chemical accidents also occur mostly in "sacrifice zones" inhabited by poor people and ethnic minorities. Those folks are also often living in the places most severely harmed by climate change, and most don't have the resources to move away. Then there's the "man camps" of non-Native men brought close to First Nation reservations to work pipelines and fracking rigs; some go raping and kidnapping Native American women in large numbers. And everywhere some tropical rainforest is being clearcut, there are disenfranchised native humans living there whose lives are being ruined as their homeland is stolen and literally destroyed.

                                Even the people who end up taking health-destroying jobs in coal mines, refineries, chemical plants, and factory farms are in some cases folks who don't have many other job options, especially in rural communities with collapsing economies - so they're also being exploited in a way. When the local fossil fuels or metals run out, companies sometimes just take all the money and abandon them (leaving the toxic waste behind).

                                If the people who profit and benefit the most from cheap fossil fuels and chemical products had to live with the pollution dumped in their own backyards and killing their own families, they might be less willing to keep using the stuff.

                                In WTA there's the added horror of banes coming to roost and breed in all these gutted industrial hellscapes and screwing around with the angry, desperate locals. And hey! when they're really desperate and despairing, not only are they more vulnerable to possession, but it's easier to tempt them to do more and more heinous things for the Wyrm, in return for medicine or jobs or money or food ... hey, Pentex has all those things!
                                Yeah what most Garou don’t know is that the Exploitation of people and the environment are hugely interconnected,


                                https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...racism-america

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