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  • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    What, exactly, are you basing that on?
    The fundamental tragedy of the game? I admit, the best Garou depiction I ever read for me was OUTCASTS and the handling of Ronin but that's a matter of player/ST preference. For me, being a Garou is a short and brutal life that is utterly divorced from the ability to lead any kind of peace. You turn, you fight, you die, and you hopefully live long enough to breed in the process. There's a reason that Garou literally have the power of Super-Sadness (Harano).

    I'm not besmirching anyone's game style but a Garou's life is fundamentally tragic as well as heroic.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      The fundamental tragedy of the game?
      And where what you said ever stated as the fundamental tragedy of the game?

      The games repeatedly hold up the idea that the Garou can't win is the central tragedy of their story. They are fighting a losing battle, and that in the modern nights most are preparing for their optimal situation to be forcing the Wyrm into a pyrrhic victory where the Garou lose, but it costs the Wyrm so much that the Wyrm loses too. If winning was ever possible, the chance to achieve it are long past.

      There's a reason that Garou literally have the power of Super-Sadness (Harano).
      Yes, because Garou are creatures of extreme emotional states, not just super-anger (also super-fear, as sometimes people seem to neglect in these discussions, fox frenzies are a thing too).

      I'm not besmirching anyone's game style but a Garou's life is fundamentally tragic as well as heroic.
      The problem is that you are besmirching other's game styles by trying to promote your play style as the "true" style of the game (which yes, you are doing when you call it "fundamental"). I'm not pushing back on the idea that there should be tragedy in the lives of Garou, I'm pushing back on your assertions about certain parts of the game.

      I don't need Rage to ruin everything in a Garou's' life outside of combat (and even then it's not always great) to have tragedy in it. The game is full of ways to bring in tragedy.

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      • Alright. Sorry. Didn't mean to call out anyone else's playstyle. My bad.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
          Having Rage be a manifestation of the Wyrm tips the scales into being too much like Vampire
          IIRC the idea that Rage came from the Wyrm was a thing in Revised already, but I'm not sure.

          Either way, I think it is an interesting idea for another reason. To me it is a gift from the Wyrm before its corruption, so it represents the Garou having gifts from the original Triad. I also think it is ironic and fitting for typical Garou hypocrisy and pride.

          Otherwise I do think Rage have some relation to the tragedy of the game, but in a very different way from Vampire. The fundamental tragedy of Werewolf is the lost battle, but as the game developed it naturally accumulated several other themes related to war. In this, Rage serves well to represent the tragedy of someone so lost in constant war that can't help anymore but think every situation in terms of combat and violence, always stressed, always reliving that hell.

          But this isn't the same tragedy, and Werewolves have many ways to avoid a frenzy. They're ultimately unable to live a normal, peaceful life, but aren't slaves to an alien force.


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          • To be honest I do hope they would bring to W5 a bit more of the internal war and hell from the curse of werewolves. Not only make this a Garou Nation against Weaver-Wyrm forces, but permit personal story about a pack of young lupines learning and adapting to their new role as Garou in their turf. That was something I wholeheartedly loved about Forsaken, and do think it doesn't take from thee setting of Apocalypse if taken in.

            And imagine when out of nowhere comes a grim and scared werewolf in your territory that you've been starting to take care for weeks, learning about your new condition, seeing spirits, good and bad, dealing with your new might, powerful emotions and sights. Then, he comes talking about a great war for the fate of the world and it all seems like too crazy a talk, and he definitely wants to recruit you to it, join a faction in a way bigger scheme, and are just lost in it, alienated. Worse is, it seems he isn't going to leave you alone if you say no, a powerful werewolf shouldn't be left alone... he might joining ranks with the forces of evil... Now that is scary setting, and just takes part of the larger scenario of Apocalypse. Sometimes the recruitment and conversion to the "Now I'm part of the Tribe X and know the goals of it, its traditions and i'm at war with the Wyrm or Weaver in my way" felt too automatic, too easy, even whimsical, with the "You're a wizard Harry", your (grand)parents were awesome shaman werewolves that kicked evil spirit's asses.


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            • First: When W5 comes out remember we have W20, until such time if it ever gets removed from drivethru rpg, and the binding of the books fails us, we have W20. Every new edition will have people that like and dislike it, but I hope it does not cause such a vicious reaction as the V5 Companion. (Many places on discord I venture to has banned any talk of WoD because of that unfortunately)

              Anyhow, as for Little Brother.

              Simple, Title the tribe as "Little Brother", in the totem section, just mention that their tribal totem is not named due to the real-world taboos concerning it. Hopefully someone that knows both WtA and is from one of Little Brother's tribal roots handles their write-up.

              Secondly, similar to how Older Brother has been expanded to include other marginalized people with a curiosity, and in many ways is more aligned with the Super Theurge theme. Little Brother could focus on taking in Garou that are from **any** marginalized group that desires to hold onto their culture in the face of its loss. Maybe add in a bit of "purity" but as a negative aspect to their desire to keep their kinfolk from adopting western values.

              They should probably replace the wording of Pure-Breed to focus more on treating it as how spiritually connected you are with the tribe itself. Its been heading that way anyhow.

              I think Black Furies should accept anyone that identifies as Female. If an ST and their group want to explore TERFs and the wonderful world of gender identity and sex chromosomes, cool... but by default it shouldn't block concepts.

              Stargazers are not the only asian wolf. If you're specifically meaning East Asian.... you have Glasswalker and Shadowlord camps from there; Older Brother also have a presence in Japan, and Little Brother have Siberian kinfolk. Mongolia might have Red Talons and Silver Fangs as well IIRC. But one can focus more on their "star gazing" and less on their original origins, I believe anyone from anywhere can be a Stargazer.

              Granted another way to bring in diversity is find a way to make the western fera more welcome in caerns.

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              • Originally posted by uriel View Post
                First: When W5 comes out remember we have W20, until such time if it ever gets removed from drivethru rpg....
                I run a database of all WoD and CoD tiles and recently migrated to a new domain, so I rechecked some older links and realised, that a lot of German and Spanish titles of WoD products were removed from DriveThru.
                Well, I know that the former German licensee went bankrupt recently, and maybe that is the reason.

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                • First of all, for Werewolf having Native Americans in the dev team is almost a requirement. I have no idea if they'll meet this requirement, but it simply is. Werewolf relies too much on many things related to them.

                  That aside, I think owning your mistakes is a better treatment than pretending they weren't there. European werewolves are all over the place anyways, so just make the ethnocentric BS their ethnocentric BS. Assume the prejudice and bigotry as such, as something that happened due to misconceptions and isn't right.

                  In this process, the Native devs and fans are the ones to tell how the "pure tribes" should be named. The first and most common mistake you can commit when dealing with a minority is to try to make peace with them without actually listening to them.

                  Pure-Breed is a similar situation. It doesn't need to have anything to do with lineage, but many Garou DO believe it have and that isn't a problem with the game, it is a challenge in the game. The Silver Fangs entire shtick goes around this, and this must be recognized. One example of how to do this could be an inter-tribal Camp consisting entirely of SF cubs rejected due to not having enough Pure-Breed, and another in the SF consisting of cubs brought from other tribes due to their Pure-Breed and blood relation to the SF, as a way to showcase that the SF actually have the same frequency of Pure-Breed as everyone else despite how much they think they're a cut above on this regard.

                  Black Furies are already a complex society full with the whole range of reactions towards men, so I think their totem would probably accept people who identify as female, even people that identify as non-male in general could have at least a chance. But the tribe as a whole would have, again, the whole range of perceptions on the issue. Otherwise you'll be receptive with some marginalized people, but "white-washing" the feminist movement itself and the experiences of many people that have complex opinions on the issue.

                  Victims of prejudice and/or abuse also don't always feel comfortable with pretending that the problem doesn't exist in the setting, many of them prefer to have the opportunity to address the issue instead. More importantly, pretending it wasn't there reinforces the belief that it wasn't a problem instead of teaching readers that it was.

                  Asian splats are a big problem as a whole, but at the same time they're a problem that was already starting to be addressed since Revised. In general learning more about the cultures, geography and history in that huge area of the world is the best way to begin.


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                  • Hunters Entertainment who were originally developing W5 had folks like James Sambrano, Cat Evans and B. Dave on the writing team.....the internal World of Darkness writing team working on it now seems to be far less diverse from the few scraps of info we have.

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                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                      For me, being a Garou is a short and brutal life that is utterly divorced from the ability to lead any kind of peace. You turn, you fight, you die, and you hopefully live long enough to breed in the process. There's a reason that Garou literally have the power of Super-Sadness (Harano).
                      I can appreciate this interpretation, but given the "gothic punk" aesthetic of the WoD, I've always read something romantic into the Garou's struggle. Yes, it's brutal and short, and generally devoid of peace; and yes, Garou feel everything a lot (Heavy Arms mentioned this upthread: the Garou are people of emotional extremes,) but I think that means they also feel the good stuff (or what I think most people would call 'good') more as well. They probably love harder (when they love,) and their bonds of kinship with their found (albeit ancient,) family are all the more intense. It's a game about fighting a nigh unwinnable (but righteous) war against an insurmountable evil steamroller, all the while realizing that that's all you can do, and that the people on either side of you are your brothers and sisters. It's a tragic game, but it's also a game about community, the importance of collective action, and family. Even when/if your character falls, they could at least go out knowing they did everything they could to stem the tide. I mean, two of the three literal virtues in Werewolf are Glory and Honor, which tells me that there's ideally supposed to be some meaning and value in going out gloriously, and with honor.


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                      • There are several older characters, meaning NPCs, in WtA source materials. So, their live isn't necessarily short. Sure, one Mother Larissa might have picked her battles and other might call the bone gnawer Elder a coward for there is Wyrm all around and she could fight every minute of every day if she just left the Central Park.

                        The thing is, that PCs usually have adventures back-to-back and the boring stuff, like waiting for intel from Contacts or doing a stake-out is skipped over, usually. Also, leaning new stuff is an XP factor, but not a time factor, for nobody I know uses the rules given with the Introduction Skill, most people aren't even aware of them and their one month per attempt to learn something approach.

                        If the WoD is a place where each and every corner of the next industrial estate is filled with lurking banes and you don't need to carefully sniff for the scent of their true forms but find Fomori basically behind each industrial installation exclusively, then sure, your life will be filled with brutality and by pure statistics it will be short. If you have an approach where the supernatural enemies of the garou are harder to find and more of the world is mundane, then garou life might be a lot longer, because the brutal battles have longer intermissions...

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                        • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                          IIRC the idea that Rage came from the Wyrm was a thing in Revised already, but I'm not sure.

                          Either way, I think it is an interesting idea for another reason. To me it is a gift from the Wyrm before its corruption, so it represents the Garou having gifts from the original Triad. I also think it is ironic and fitting for typical Garou hypocrisy and pride.

                          Otherwise I do think Rage have some relation to the tragedy of the game, but in a very different way from Vampire. The fundamental tragedy of Werewolf is the lost battle, but as the game developed it naturally accumulated several other themes related to war. In this, Rage serves well to represent the tragedy of someone so lost in constant war that can't help anymore but think every situation in terms of combat and violence, always stressed, always reliving that hell.

                          But this isn't the same tragedy, and Werewolves have many ways to avoid a frenzy. They're ultimately unable to live a normal, peaceful life, but aren't slaves to an alien force.
                          Except that pure Triatic spirits of the Wyld and Weaver also have Rage, and some passages in the Book of the Wyld would suggest that unrestrained action is a notable part of it that doesn't depend on the Wyrm. That's also the interpretation of Kunmind for Rokea, though there it's more on the order of "becoming in turn with the mind of potential and possibility itself is not conducive to calm action".

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                          • Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                            Except that pure Triatic spirits of the Wyld and Weaver also have Rage.
                            As a mechanic, not necessarily in lore. And that's irrelevant, I said I like it and that it was cited before, not that it is absolute truth.

                            I agree that it isn't by far the same thing as the Beast. But I see no point in trying to argue that it can't be linked to the Wyrm if this is completely irrelevant in the end, from where Rage comes.


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                            • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                              As a mechanic, not necessarily in lore. And that's irrelevant, I said I like it and that it was cited before, not that it is absolute truth.

                              I agree that it isn't by far the same thing as the Beast. But I see no point in trying to argue that it can't be linked to the Wyrm if this is completely irrelevant in the end, from where Rage comes.
                              I think it's very relevant, because Thrall of the Wyrm frenzies give a very skewed presentation of some themes of the game, and it would probably be better off without them. Let any personal horror come from the uncertainty of what happened in a blackout frenzy, and keep the camera on the PTSD engendered by splatter horror and the general threat of violence being far-reaching, where even elders are not safe in spite of their great relative power. Personal horror is supposed to be a side show anyway; it can be done, but isn't the focus the way that Vampire makes it. And in the end, the games are better off for emphasizing the lanes that they main, rather than jutting out in every direction or making the themes of Vampire overshadow everything else with great big huge overdoses of angst.

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                              • Thrall of the Wyrm is just a rule, and doesn't have a necessary correlation with the theory of Rage coming from the Wyrm. You can say it came and yet get rid of this rule, or you can say it didn't and yet keep the rule 'cause the Wyrm hijacks the Frenzy anyways. Your problem here isn't the theory, but the intrusion of wrong themes in the game. And agree with you, I love both games but I think they're pretty fine in their respective thematic niches.

                                Usually I houserule TotW anyways. At minimum I let the players spend their WP as in any other Frenzy, and chars with more WP than Rage only act as if they had less WP, instead, even if they fall to it. Only when things are really, really interesting to explore in this way I enforce TotW, usually for war crimes-like drama instead of on conventional contexts.


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