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Chances of W5 being Forsaken Reskinned?

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  • Mahjemm01
    started a topic Chances of W5 being Forsaken Reskinned?

    Chances of W5 being Forsaken Reskinned?

    Now I will admit that I know way more bout WoD(Masquerade, Apocalypse, Ascension, etc) then I do bout CoD(Requiem, Forsaken, Awakening, etc). But IMO V5 is basically Requiem Reskinned. But I think for Masquerade that was a good thing. When I first learned of Requiem I did think that it was a better game for the most part then Masquerade. But when I learned of Forsaken, I didn't like it. Not all. The things bout Apocalypse that I grew to love was no where,anywhere, in it. Now I am not saying Forsaken is a bad game. It's just not MY GAME for werewolves. None of the Tribes "clicked" with me. The down sizing of the number of Tribes felt like I was short changed. The depth of the Spirit World was also gone. The Shadow imo is just not as exciting as the Umbra. Again, I am not bashing Forsaken, just listing things that in my opinion turned me off for the game.

    Now with that all being said, does anyone else wonder if that they are going to basically take Forsaken and reskin it and call it W5? Drop Gnosis and call the spiritual power score Primal Urge? Add in Harmony as a measure on how balanced spiritually a character is? And included Touchstones (Forsaken actually calls those something different but Idrc exact phrase)? Imo Apocalypse really doesn't needing retooling, just smoothing.
    Last edited by Mahjemm01; 08-11-2020, 03:11 PM.

  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Lyrics Of War View Post

    I’m the inverse. Ive been loving apocalypse more lately. Mechanically I suspect they’ll utilize the same combat mechanics as v5. With their “one world of darkness” tag, I don’t suspect they’ll be changing it.
    That has the potential to be a terrible fit. W:tA prefers a level of splatter that would probably upset V:tM players something fierce.

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  • Banu_Saulot
    replied
    I suspected W5 would arrive in 2021. With the Werewolf products (two PC/Console games) making a bit of a hype buildup. I'm excited to see it either way, but WoD does best when it is given time.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by BadFurryFanFic View Post


    Apparently, but as Paradox doesn't really communicate like a normal company its hard to find the info.


    Given that the equivalent of the JHD is being written it looks like W5 is definately in the pipeline.. but has been significantly delayed.

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  • Lyrics Of War
    replied
    Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
    I think each day I like WtA less personally. The problem is what I think would make it better in W5 for me seems to go against what the real fans of WtA like or at least would like in W5, so it's a good thing I ain't the designer or writer for it lol
    But I'm really interested to see how they will deal with W5, cuz, as Heavy Arms touched upon, the 4th editions (20th anniversary) of WoD still felt like 90s games. But although at first I had some small gripes with V5, I've grown to enjoy it by a lot. Now, more than most media, RPG permits us to make "canon" whatever we want in our table, so I'm happy with whatever W5 throw at us, be it system, cosmology or plot. But also hope that as many people as possible can enjoy and be satisfied by W5, that it fits their tastes and wants, etc.

    But I guess the thread is more about the cosmology and plot instead of mechanics right? It seems most people agree that the system could do well with an improvement and update, whatever it may be. Although I wonder if combat will stay the same as V5 does, because a werewolf combat taking 3 turns sounds a bit weird (although it's just an optional rule for quickness tbh).
    I’m the inverse. Ive been loving apocalypse more lately. Mechanically I suspect they’ll utilize the same combat mechanics as v5. With their “one world of darkness” tag, I don’t suspect they’ll be changing it.

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  • Banu_Saulot
    replied
    I think each day I like WtA less personally. The problem is what I think would make it better in W5 for me seems to go against what the real fans of WtA like or at least would like in W5, so it's a good thing I ain't the designer or writer for it lol
    But I'm really interested to see how they will deal with W5, cuz, as Heavy Arms touched upon, the 4th editions (20th anniversary) of WoD still felt like 90s games. But although at first I had some small gripes with V5, I've grown to enjoy it by a lot. Now, more than most media, RPG permits us to make "canon" whatever we want in our table, so I'm happy with whatever W5 throw at us, be it system, cosmology or plot. But also hope that as many people as possible can enjoy and be satisfied by W5, that it fits their tastes and wants, etc.

    But I guess the thread is more about the cosmology and plot instead of mechanics right? It seems most people agree that the system could do well with an improvement and update, whatever it may be. Although I wonder if combat will stay the same as V5 does, because a werewolf combat taking 3 turns sounds a bit weird (although it's just an optional rule for quickness tbh).

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  • BadFurryFanFic
    replied
    Originally posted by omenseer View Post
    Is W5 still happening?

    Apparently, but as Paradox doesn't really communicate like a normal company its hard to find the info.

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  • omenseer
    replied
    Is W5 still happening?

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    To be a bit less hyperbolic about this, as there's pretty much zero odds W5 is going to just be WtF 2e with a thin coat of WtA paint on it:

    The problem is that the CofD did a lot of strong design work in the same basic space as the WoD. The 20th books are great, but they're, design-wise, still games from the 90s. There's a massive gap in time spent in new editions that overhaul some seriously outdated mechanics. So there's a natural inclination to want to look to the CofD for ideas of mechanics that can help the WoD 5e books update things to a 2020s era game line.

    By itself, that's not even a bad thing. I would love to see WtA have a different power systems than the current sprawling mess that is Gifts, without retreading Disciplines either. The CofD has a bunch of different models for powers at this point to look at and see if they might be better than the Gift grab-bag. Wtf 2e's Totem building system is a lot more useful than WtA's big list of Totems. Etc.

    The issue is that V5 didn't implement these sorts of mechanical inspirations well. They frequently feel very obviously tacked onto the game, and haven't been fine tuned to support V5's themes as well as they could have been. As such, W5 looking at mechanical inspirations elsewhere feels concerning because of that lack of attention to integration. Wtf 2e's Harmony systems are fun (to me at least), but they're not the right fit for WtA. If W5 just snags Harmony with a few tweaks, I think it would be a disservice to Harmony and to WtA. Even a better fight for WtA like CtL 2e's Clarity needs some serious work to make sure it's highlighting WtA's themes or it's not worth it.

    Until we have a better picture of how W5 is going to shape up, these concerns are going to linger. Though even as a fellow pessimist about it, I would caution people to not let it fester. W5 might be a good game, even if ti's going to have a lot of us saying, "this isn't WtA to me, I'm sticking to W20," and there's no need to take it farther than that until we have more solid info.

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  • Erinys
    replied
    Why would they want to copy and paste WTF when they can just... publish more WTF? Did they not buy the rights to WTF and they did want to publish it? So why not buy the rights to it? It doesn't even make sense. But V5 doesn't make sense either.

    We know by now that the existence of CoD does not somehow prevent the WoD from continuing. People can buy and play both and some probably do. So what could possibly be the reason for wanting to merge them? I just don't understand it. I mean, I doubt V5 satisfies VTR fans anymore than it satisfies VTM fans.



    Anyway... homid werewolves can certainly feel like they've lost their "humanity" and struggle to hold onto it. And an outside perspective might see that as no different from the way a vampire struggles to accept their new condition. But for a shapeshifter, this is delusion - their condition isn't new (unless they're a Skin-Dancer, but in that case they wanted to become a werewolf).

    On some level, even unconsciously, the First Change is a relief. It's a release of tension. It's also finally, finally, finding a place they belong. All shapehifters grow up not belonging, and not being accepted, even those born from two shapeshifters. (Except the Shinju.) All of them spend their childhood in a society that tells them their urges and thoughts and feelings are unnatural or wrong, or can't relate to or even comprehend those feelings, or tells them their body and soul are wrong (depending on breed). And then, after the Change, they finally fit in. They finally know why they were different, what those feelings meant and have a society where those feelings are accepted and acceptable. To make sense and meaning out of what was incomprehensible before, to have a language to express what was indescribable before, to have peers who understand. That is absolutely priceless, especially for such social creatures as werewolves (and some Fera). It is the closing of a wound they could never name or see clearly before.

    Fitting into this society does require giving up many of the beliefs, behaviors, and even values a homid learned from modern capitalist, monotheistic, anti-Gaian human society. And that's absolutely a struggle. Shapeshifters seem to cling to and identify personally with their beliefs in the same way humans do, and could be devastated by having their belief system undermined. But for a shapeshifter, it's a struggle to put on a shoe that truly fits, not to squeeze into a hostile society of undead puppet-masters and ruthless vampire politics that wants to eat what's left of their soul (sometimes literally).
    Last edited by Erinys; 03-06-2021, 12:33 AM.

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  • Fenixpp
    replied
    IMO W5 could have just a Corebook, Umbra, Changing Breeds, Triat and a Player's Guide containing a mix of Rage Across the World and Tribes, but I know that in the name of the profit they would make more books if all goes well, that would be cool. I really don't think WTA needs more meta-plot with each new edition, just updating the game chronologically and mechanically with some new options for characters. In my chronicle I put the Revised Edition-like events (like the appearing of the Eye of the Wyrm) at the "endgame", my players have already some experience in WTA, so a good part of the tension is when I will say: ehh... guys... you notice a red star when you awake from your meditation.

    I just hope that W5 doesn't end up a reskinned WTF. I don't know if WTF 2e sold more than W20, but if it did that could signal to the company to copy and paste in the name of practicality and money. I like the animism in WTA way more than the one present in WTF, it would be a no-go for me. But, in fact, I houserule almost all the combat mechanics to be like the COD ones. There are good things to be learned from WTF, but please don't take WTA away from me.

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  • Erinys
    replied
    Shapeshifters vary in how much xenofiction they are. Spider-born Ananasi are extremely inhuman, with no human experiences and no real emotions. Homid Nuwisha are fairly close to human, having Gnosis and wild animal instincts but no Rage. In between are a wide variety of character options with varying degrees of human emotions and values. They can all be complex, fully-3D characters - even the almost-completely emotionless Ananasi. But any xenofiction is more difficult than playing your own species, culture, gender, and sexual orientation.


    I do think it would be interesting and cool to have more details about Gnosis. It's a soul-deep connection to Gaia, fundamentally knowing and constantly feeling her love and pain and the fact that she's their mother. This has got to be a strong influence on emotions, on morals, on gut reactions, on instincts... it's the basis of their religions, the proof of their reasons to exist, the meaning of shapeshifter life. Yet, although there are many words written about the haze of Rage, I don't know of a book that delves into how Gnosis makes shapeshifters feel. I can only think of the mechanics for Ratkin who get too much Gnosis all at once.
    Last edited by Erinys; 03-05-2021, 11:42 PM.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    There's a general circumstance given for characters to experience a higher temporary Rage than their normal rating that could use more fleshing out. That's probably about it on what might need to change. There's already a stat that determines reactions to stress (Rage), and a stat that measures how comfortable a character is as a shapeshifter (Primal-Urge). The former has some pretty wild fluctuations in temporary points, while the latter is only going to be low if a character purposefully tamps down on doing things the werebeast way and still goes in for human solutions (nicely demonstrated by... not putting any effort into improving it and going for, say, Craft, Technology, Drive, and Firearms instead).

    Note that just because their psychology isn't quite human doesn't mean that they can't feel like realized characters. They're still more relatable to living beings than undead by virtue of still having a number of frailities of life - though they get sick, poisoned or the like less often, it can still happen, and some sources of injury make the battle scars that result far, far worse than getting into a brawl with knives, cars, or falling buildings. Even the Rokea, who are by default ageless, still feel the ups and downs of life.

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  • Erinys
    replied
    Absolutely not. If shapeshifters don't need animals then the entire game has completely different themes and is no longer Werewolf: the Apocalypse at all. It also means Red Talons, Rokea, Mokole, and a bunch of other groups never existed (and we can't play them) and the entire history of the setting from the Triassic on will be extremely retconned. As soon as the past is retconned away and rewritten from scratch, it's not the same game and loses all value for someone like me, who's invested in or playing the setting already written.

    It's also important to remember that other Changing-Breeds have very different psychology from Garou, and no shapeshifters have human psychology. Many years before their First Change, homids are incapable of fitting into human society because they're fundamentally inhuman. Same with lupus in wolf society. They're not supposed to feel human - that's just not the point of the game. So any morality system that's built into the mechanics like Humanity and impossible to ignore, or which wastes a bunch of ST time removing, or wastes significant page count, is something that only homid Garou can ever use and every other character type is just incompatible or unplayable.

    Banu Saulot, I think that maybe your experiences relate to your ST failing to use the "morality" mechanics Werewolf already has. Wyrm taint, Thrall of the Wyrm, falling, spiritual decay, the anger of the spirits, and the renown penalties and punishment rites for breaking the Litany are already built into the game. Every tribe already has their own particular interpretation of the Litany, and every kind of Fera has their own, different Litany and renown system. But these things aren't simple numbers to plug into a formula, and they aren't one size fits all PCs. They require effort and roleplaying and storytelling instead of just looking up a number on a table. I could understand wanting a simplified version as an alternative option, but it's just not true that Werewolf lacks morality or consequences to PC actions, from the deeply personal and spiritual to the vastly cosmic. Werewolf is a game all about consequences of human and shapeshifter behavior both past and present, just like Mage is (or can be) a game about consequencs of Mage and sleeper behavior past and present. They are also games about making hard choices without good options. If your PCs never experience consequences for anything, then your ST isn't running Werewolf as written.

    To be sure, Werewolf's morality mechanics and consequences are optional - not that the game is modular or balanced around ignoring them, but that the mechanics of the game aren't built to depend utterly on them. I get the impression Vampire rules would collapse without a Humanity/Path number on every character sheet, but the Werewolf rules won't collapse if you change the consequences of behavior. You don't even really need renown, you can just use the Nagah method for gaining rank. That said, the morality mechanics and consequences are in the game and ignoring them is a ST choice, not a failing of the books.


    The themes of being something both human and wild animal, and yet neither, and the theme of severe consequences for everyone's actions, are quite fundamental to Werewolf. I wish I could trust Paradox to hire writers who understand and value the themes of Werewolf, but what they did to Changing Ways demonstrated an overt hostility to the fundamental themes of this game that I can't ignore.
    Last edited by Erinys; 03-05-2021, 11:37 PM.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    The hardest part of such mechanics for WtA is simple: Breeds.

    While all Garou have the same mental and moral capacity once they've undergone the First Change, their formative years are radically different. There are things lupus grow up thinking is perfectly normal and natural, that would strain a homid's cultural upbringing's norms, and vice versa.

    Forsaken made all werewolves humans, and that made designing these sorts of things much easier.

    I'm pretty sure most WtA fans (whatever they feel about Forsaken, and including myself as a big fan of Forsaken) don't want WtA to lose non-homid Breeds just to make a more satisfying "emotional consequences for your actions," mechanic. But it's the kind of thing V5 taking things from VtR 2e makes people worry about (hence this thread).

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