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Chances of W5 being Forsaken Reskinned?

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  • Mahjemm01
    started a topic Chances of W5 being Forsaken Reskinned?

    Chances of W5 being Forsaken Reskinned?

    Now I will admit that I know way more bout WoD(Masquerade, Apocalypse, Ascension, etc) then I do bout CoD(Requiem, Forsaken, Awakening, etc). But IMO V5 is basically Requiem Reskinned. But I think for Masquerade that was a good thing. When I first learned of Requiem I did think that it was a better game for the most part then Masquerade. But when I learned of Forsaken, I didn't like it. Not all. The things bout Apocalypse that I grew to love was no where,anywhere, in it. Now I am not saying Forsaken is a bad game. It's just not MY GAME for werewolves. None of the Tribes "clicked" with me. The down sizing of the number of Tribes felt like I was short changed. The depth of the Spirit World was also gone. The Shadow imo is just not as exciting as the Umbra. Again, I am not bashing Forsaken, just listing things that in my opinion turned me off for the game.

    Now with that all being said, does anyone else wonder if that they are going to basically take Forsaken and reskin it and call it W5? Drop Gnosis and call the spiritual power score Primal Urge? Add in Harmony as a measure on how balanced spiritually a character is? And included Touchstones (Forsaken actually calls those something different but Idrc exact phrase)? Imo Apocalypse really doesn't needing retooling, just smoothing.
    Last edited by Mahjemm01; 08-11-2020, 03:11 PM.

  • Ragged Robin
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    The list of changes posted in the other thread was.... not so reassuring though. While expected, there's a lot of changes that are moving things closer to Forsaken. The only reason I think there is likely to be less backlash is most of the people that ranted about V5 being to Requiem-like are too exhausted to care about what Paradox is doing to not be pre-V5 WoD anymore.


    Most players I know are opting out to wait until WoD 6th under the 4th ed D&D vs 5th mindset. Which isnt unreasonableable after you waste 40 bucks on v5 anarch. Should be interesting to see if it affects W5 sales, once bitten as they say. But without market data it's all speculation
    Last edited by Ragged Robin; 10-16-2021, 06:48 AM.

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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied
    Okay, so things that make it seem more Forsaken;

    Hateful Umbra
    No Crinos-born and I don't hold out hope for lupus, either. Thus, Red Talons would become like Predator Kings.
    Werewolves mating with one another.
    Renown being used in rolls. (I think this was a thing in WtF?)

    This would change a LOT of the gameplay of WtA, and not in a way that makes it stand out from Forsaken. I do not mean to compare games, I LIKE Forsaken a lot. But when I pick up a WtA book, I want a WtA experience. Not WtF.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
    I don't know about having CoD for an extremely local game... Neither WoD being supposed to operate necessarily at larger scales. But sure, let's say it is like that, a new edition might spell out a different scale, and I don't think there can be an argument against it based on "setting tendencies". I prefer my games in a local scale, but I am playing one with lots of travelling and expansive exploring with joy, and both are doable by both settings/systems.
    About the Umbra, well, I guess this will be a major plot point for the setting, the slow end of the world, or it might be that the Garou misunderstood the spirit world, maybe there is hope, maybe there is a way to keep the world from falling apart, if it indeed will; one setting spelling the end to all the others doesn't seem reasonable (and that's one of the reason local scale with global factors is my preferable workspace), but I could be very much wrong. I only wonder what the logics and definitions of it will be, how much will it change from the prior editions, or will merely shift inside the stated rules and beliefs of how it works. Anything goes with new editions. Heck, I would never think they would take the Elders out of Vampire, but they did; not that I did it in all my games, but it sure was an unexpected turn of events. Either way, I don't know enough about the setting spiritual geography and cosmology besides the basics, so for those who have plenty ideas about it, I'm eager to hear out the consequences of having it cut off or diminished, and how the Garou would react theoretically.
    1 - Egregious misunderstandings of the spirit world on this scale are for Vampire, Mage, and Demon.

    2 - the slow end this puts into motion is a major kick in the pants to any hope spots that existed.

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  • Banu_Saulot
    replied
    I don't know about having CoD for an extremely local game... Neither WoD being supposed to operate necessarily at larger scales. But sure, let's say it is like that, a new edition might spell out a different scale, and I don't think there can be an argument against it based on "setting tendencies". I prefer my games in a local scale, but I am playing one with lots of travelling and expansive exploring with joy, and both are doable by both settings/systems.
    About the Umbra, well, I guess this will be a major plot point for the setting, the slow end of the world, or it might be that the Garou misunderstood the spirit world, maybe there is hope, maybe there is a way to keep the world from falling apart, if it indeed will; one setting spelling the end to all the others doesn't seem reasonable (and that's one of the reason local scale with global factors is my preferable workspace), but I could be very much wrong. I only wonder what the logics and definitions of it will be, how much will it change from the prior editions, or will merely shift inside the stated rules and beliefs of how it works. Anything goes with new editions. Heck, I would never think they would take the Elders out of Vampire, but they did; not that I did it in all my games, but it sure was an unexpected turn of events. Either way, I don't know enough about the setting spiritual geography and cosmology besides the basics, so for those who have plenty ideas about it, I'm eager to hear out the consequences of having it cut off or diminished, and how the Garou would react theoretically.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post


    I really hope they go to a more Vigil and Hunters Hunted angle rather than the Reckoning one. And well, the 5th editions seems to be going more local, more down to earth, which I prefer, so personally I'm very pleased. I also think that Hunter is an interesting choice! And also, strangely enough, Hunter and Werewolf might be the less info-dumping settings we have in WoD. Considering the extra-expansiveness that other settings have, with their chimeral worlds, lands of the dead, heaven and hell mythology and all that; yet I'm still thinking how the Umbra and spirits will be in W5, cuz it has always been a hard to grasp and narrate part of the setting for me, which I needed extra material to understand (Forsaken gave a bit of an interesting angle and ecology I got more easily, but it could've been a fluke). So I wonder... either way, I'be checking both out excited.
    Extremely local is what you have CroD for, is it not? WoD is supposed to operate at a larger scale. That's its thing.

    As for the Umbra, the concept behind it is the reason why a lot of us grumbling old timers are snarling about it: it's the literal soul of the world. If it gets cut off, the setting is very clear that the solid world of flesh and matter will break down into ruin, completely and totally, while the spiritual side will then start to fade away. This is literally one of the bad ends of The Last Battle in Apocalypse, and not something to be taken lightly at all.

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  • Banu_Saulot
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    They announced an update for it, and it still doesn't sound anything like Forsaken. So hopefully you are reassured.



    That said, they also announced Hunter 5e, which is apparently almost done, and has dropped the major Imbued angle and does sound a lot more like Hunter the Vigil.

    I really hope they go to a more Vigil and Hunters Hunted angle rather than the Reckoning one. And well, the 5th editions seems to be going more local, more down to earth, which I prefer, so personally I'm very pleased. I also think that Hunter is an interesting choice! And also, strangely enough, Hunter and Werewolf might be the less info-dumping settings we have in WoD. Considering the extra-expansiveness that other settings have, with their chimeral worlds, lands of the dead, heaven and hell mythology and all that; yet I'm still thinking how the Umbra and spirits will be in W5, cuz it has always been a hard to grasp and narrate part of the setting for me, which I needed extra material to understand (Forsaken gave a bit of an interesting angle and ecology I got more easily, but it could've been a fluke). So I wonder... either way, I'be checking both out excited.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    The list of changes posted in the other thread was.... not so reassuring though. While expected, there's a lot of changes that are moving things closer to Forsaken. The only reason I think there is likely to be less backlash is most of the people that ranted about V5 being to Requiem-like are too exhausted to care about what Paradox is doing to not be pre-V5 WoD anymore.
    Last edited by Heavy Arms; 10-14-2021, 02:08 PM.

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  • nofather
    replied
    They announced an update for it, and it still doesn't sound anything like Forsaken. So hopefully you are reassured.

    Originally posted by https://www.worldofdarkness.com/news/world-of-darkness-brand-update
    "Werewolf: The Apocalypse as we are envisioning it today is a storytelling game about radical solutions that explore an environmental apocalypse where a range of injustices provoke urgency and violence. It's a game about tearing apart your enemies... and living with the repercussions. It also is a game that explores the differences between people and the mutual sacrifices made to effect - or endure - global consequences. To frame this story in the most exciting way possible, while also being respectful to the various cultures portrayed in the game, means we are taking extra time to ensure that it delivers the best experience for everyone."
    That said, they also announced Hunter 5e, which is apparently almost done, and has dropped the major Imbued angle and does sound a lot more like Hunter the Vigil.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    But having five of something would be Forsaken-like!

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Yes, because Garou are creatures of extreme emotional states, not just super-anger (also super-fear, as sometimes people seem to neglect in these discussions, fox frenzies are a thing too).
    Inside Out, Werewolf edition? We've got anger, fear, sadness; what about disgust and joy?

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    1- It can still have other explanations. The problem is the rule, not if it truly comes from the Wyrm;

    2- It remains an unnecessary rule. Nothing changes if you get rid of it because nothing else in rule or lore is dependent on TotW being a thing;

    3- It is rare enough for you to get rid of the rule or change it anyways to suit your chronicle. You can change it to only happen if the player wants the drama, or to only affect Garou that are sufficiently tainted, or whatever.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    Thrall of the Wyrm is just a rule, and doesn't have a necessary correlation with the theory of Rage coming from the Wyrm. You can say it came and yet get rid of this rule, or you can say it didn't and yet keep the rule 'cause the Wyrm hijacks the Frenzy anyways. Your problem here isn't the theory, but the intrusion of wrong themes in the game. And agree with you, I love both games but I think they're pretty fine in their respective thematic niches.

    Usually I houserule TotW anyways. At minimum I let the players spend their WP as in any other Frenzy, and chars with more WP than Rage only act as if they had less WP, instead, even if they fall to it. Only when things are really, really interesting to explore in this way I enforce TotW, usually for war crimes-like drama instead of on conventional contexts.
    The Thrall of the Wyrm, since it was introduced in 2e, has been a rather overwrought, well-defined section appended to Rage that goes into what could be described as "loving" detail as to how the Rage of the Garou is tainted by the Triatic Wyrms, and that's why Garou born of two Garou rape their enemies from time to time. This is presented out of character, as an objective thing in the setting that definitely exists, and that's a problem, as noted in my prior posts.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Thrall of the Wyrm is just a rule, and doesn't have a necessary correlation with the theory of Rage coming from the Wyrm. You can say it came and yet get rid of this rule, or you can say it didn't and yet keep the rule 'cause the Wyrm hijacks the Frenzy anyways. Your problem here isn't the theory, but the intrusion of wrong themes in the game. And agree with you, I love both games but I think they're pretty fine in their respective thematic niches.

    Usually I houserule TotW anyways. At minimum I let the players spend their WP as in any other Frenzy, and chars with more WP than Rage only act as if they had less WP, instead, even if they fall to it. Only when things are really, really interesting to explore in this way I enforce TotW, usually for war crimes-like drama instead of on conventional contexts.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    As a mechanic, not necessarily in lore. And that's irrelevant, I said I like it and that it was cited before, not that it is absolute truth.

    I agree that it isn't by far the same thing as the Beast. But I see no point in trying to argue that it can't be linked to the Wyrm if this is completely irrelevant in the end, from where Rage comes.
    I think it's very relevant, because Thrall of the Wyrm frenzies give a very skewed presentation of some themes of the game, and it would probably be better off without them. Let any personal horror come from the uncertainty of what happened in a blackout frenzy, and keep the camera on the PTSD engendered by splatter horror and the general threat of violence being far-reaching, where even elders are not safe in spite of their great relative power. Personal horror is supposed to be a side show anyway; it can be done, but isn't the focus the way that Vampire makes it. And in the end, the games are better off for emphasizing the lanes that they main, rather than jutting out in every direction or making the themes of Vampire overshadow everything else with great big huge overdoses of angst.

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