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Do Garou notice the handiwork of the Void Engineers?

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  • Do Garou notice the handiwork of the Void Engineers?

    Garou protect the world from otherworldly horrors, same as the VE. Sure a lot of those threats are also from Earth, but a lot of bad things come from beyond. Should the Garou recognize that the VE are out there and killing stuff that they want dead? How noticed should the VEs be by the Garou Nation?

  • #2
    From a Garou perspective it depends on how far out they go in the deep umbra. The Glasswalkers have a camp that explores out that far in ships of their own making so it's possible they might have run into each other but the VE would treat them like any other extra dimensional threat.


    You've been playing around the magic that is black
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    • #3
      The Garou would probably want to kill any Void Engineer if they ever sighted one in the Umbra. They'd probably believe that detachment of VE would either be Pentex or that their somesort of cultists belonging to the Weaver. Though if the VE at the time has a heavily upgraded Voidship arsenal, at best they would be watched from afar only by the Garou and not engage.


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      • #4
        Practically speaking, the Umbra is big enough, and the playable supernaturals rare enough, that them not really noticing each other is a distinct possibility.

        VEs operating mainly on Earth are operating mostly in high Gauntlet areas where it's much harder for the Garou to be, or to distinguish them from all of the Drones and Pattern Spiders, and so on.

        VEs operating mainly in the Umbra tends towards the High and Deep Umbra, while the Garou spend far more time in the Middle Umbra. The different games also have completely different cosmologies for the farther reaches so it's possible that VEs going to Mars and Garou going to visit Nerigal aren't even in the same part of the Umbra despite both groups following the same material correspondences.

        Of course, they can always run into each other, and there's a lot of ways it might happen, so if you want to do it as a ST, it's a pretty open situation; esp. in M20 with Threat Null as it leaves the VEs way more open to working with mystics and RDs as they consider Threat Null a far bigger threat (and one they can't handle with help from the rest of the Union).

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        • #5
          Due to the differing cosmological assumptions of W:tA and M:tA, not only will Garou and VEs not likely be in the same world, they might not even be in the same potential reality. The only VEs that are likely to show up are the Earth Frontiers Division that's big into ocean exploration and also being taken for a bit of a ride by Pentex, who furnishes them with "construct" guards to escort their missions. Said guards, being in fact fomori, are likely to attract a lot of the attention that the VEs probably wouldn't want.

          Games other than Mage don't tend to deal much with space exploration, for better or worse, so bumping into the VEs that endeavor to explore it would probably require that there was some kind of WoD: Space book to bring everything to a general standard like Blood-Dimmed Tides did for the open ocean, or that the core books of other games spent more time discussing space as a thing that fits into the mood and themes of the games in question. Do vampires have ambitions of floating tombs guarded by space junk, inaccessible by normal means so that they can win the game without being vulnerable to having their havens breached? Do changelings produce space dragon chimerae to act as transport to hidden satellite freeholds? Do ghosts who dreamt of lives of space exploration manage to go beyond the range of the planet to realize their passion so that they can eventually pass on?

          A lot of those factors might not have fit in with the themes and atmospheres of WoD games in the 90s - the WoD was a far cry from the super-optimistic technology of Cyberpunk 2020, after all (that is, the development pace was optimistic, not the setting). Maybe now there's room for it, or at least thinking about it. Though, if previous trends are any indication, it might force Mage back closer to the ground.

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          • #6
            My impression is that the VE carry out the genocidal pogrom just as much as the other Technocrats. So as soon as they try to murder or capture the Garou just for existing, the werewolves will fight back.

            Given that most Garou are also intolerant of the unknown even at their best, and already have bad experiences with high-tech teams attacking them, they may be just as hostile. If they saw the VEs fighting against some tentacled horror, they'd probably see it as not much different from a Nexus Crawler vs. Stasis Vector fight, or a HIT Mark vs. Black Spiral fight: two implacable, utterly evil enemies who will hopefully kill each other, and if anyone survives you try to pick them off while they're still wounded. For better or worse (mostly worse), most Garou don't believe that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

            In Werewolf cosmology, the Technocrats are a Weaver cult, and Threat Null are probably drones (possessed and controlled by Weaver spirits). I don't know if they can be visually told apart. So seeing them fight each other might just look like unimportant infighting to Garou eyes. Black Spiral Dancer packs might fight each other or Pentex too, but only a truly gullible Gaian would actually try to ally with either side.

            Edit: That said, many or most Garou also consider the Wyrm a greater enemy and threat than the Weaver - especially the Glass Walkers. So if Garou went to the Deep Umbra on some quest, and were approached by non-hostile VEs asking for help against Nephandi and their buddies, they might consider it. They wouldn't trust the mages, of course, and would fear betrayal from the VEs. They'd also probably act just as arrogant, self-righteous, and more-educated-than-you-morons as the mages do. There is also the question of whether they ask for something in return.

            Some Corax do fly out in the Deep Umbra, and could run into the VEs. They have a quite negative view of the Technocrats, however, because of the whole "reality deviant" garbage.
            Last edited by Erinys; 08-26-2020, 06:45 PM.


            I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
            Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Erinys View Post
              My impression is that the VE carry out the genocidal pogrom just as much as the other Technocrats. So as soon as they try to murder or capture the Garou just for existing, the werewolves will fight back.

              Given that most Garou are also intolerant of the unknown even at their best, and already have bad experiences with high-tech teams attacking them, they may be just as hostile. If they saw the VEs fighting against some tentacled horror, they'd probably see it as not much different from a Nexus Crawler vs. Stasis Vector fight, or a HIT Mark vs. Black Spiral fight: two implacable, utterly evil enemies who will hopefully kill each other, and if anyone survives you try to pick them off while they're still wounded. For better or worse (mostly worse), most Garou don't believe that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

              In Werewolf cosmology, the Technocrats are a Weaver cult, and Threat Null are probably drones (possessed and controlled by Weaver spirits). I don't know if they can be visually told apart. So seeing them fight each other might just look like unimportant infighting to Garou eyes. Black Spiral Dancer packs might fight each other or Pentex too, but only a truly gullible Gaian would actually try to ally with either side.

              Edit: That said, many or most Garou also consider the Wyrm a greater enemy and threat than the Weaver - especially the Glass Walkers. So if Garou went to the Deep Umbra on some quest, and were approached by non-hostile VEs asking for help against Nephandi and their buddies, they might consider it. They wouldn't trust the mages, of course, and would fear betrayal from the VEs. They'd also probably act just as arrogant, self-righteous, and more-educated-than-you-morons as the mages do. There is also the question of whether they ask for something in return.

              Some Corax do fly out in the Deep Umbra, and could run into the VEs. They have a quite negative view of the Technocrats, however, because of the whole "reality deviant" garbage.
              From what o read about the VE I don’t think they’ll try to attack things on a exploration mission.

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              • #8
                Interesting. So if they're out on a bug hunt, or defending some spot, they may be jumpy and paranoid and shoot first, but if they're exploring they'll be more laid-back and curious? Do you know how dedicated they are to "sanitizating" Reality Deviants, in various editions?

                I'll add that I know Werewolf cosmology doesn't matter for a purely Mage game, but if you're using Garou or Corax NPCs they'll believe it as their "paradigm". (With all the fervor of violent religious fanatics.)
                Last edited by Erinys; 08-27-2020, 12:13 PM.


                I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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                • #9
                  The VE's have fairly consistently post-1e been the "grunts" of the Union. The ItX and Progenitors got to talk bigger about fighting RDs, but they were making things like HIT-Marks and clone agents to go do the fighting while most of their members were back in labs. The NWO and Syndicate were setting the policy and stance of the Union, while also frequently being the Conventions that let RDs slide when convenient because they're not the front lines of the Union's direct physical conflicts.

                  The VEs, despite being Enlightened Scientists in their own right, developed the strongest fighting operatives out of necessity: their agents need to be out on the edges exploring, and the edges are dangerous. Within the Convention, that defensive curiosity has always promoted a more open mind to being flexible about what's a RD and what's an acceptable non-human entity; though for their own safety once something is agreed on as too dangerous, they kill with maximum force. Externally, the rest of the Union pushed them to become the front line troops; expecting them to wipe out RDs as dictated by others even as many of those same other agents were making back room deals with RDs when violence wasn't considered a cost effective approach.

                  So how dedicated they are is a dance of messy semantics, because the VEs are being pulled in multiple directions. They don't want to sanitize Reality, because they're explorers and they want to have things to explore, but they have a long history of swift and brutal violence once they run into something they deem threatening enough, which their loyalty to the Union means letting the other Conventions weigh in on that discussion and frequently out vote the VEs so they end up fighting things they don't believe need to be wiped out.

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                  • #10
                    Ah yes, armchair generals who send other people out to die in their war.
                    Thanks for posting that - it certainly makes a case for all kinds of potential encounters, at least on the VE's side. Of course, as other gamelines have mentioned the VEs have a history of unintentionally and unknowingly ravaging some of the places they explore. (e.g. Project Deepwater.)


                    There is another Changing-Breed the VEs might encounter in space, that is the Bastet. They have very little access to the Umbra and would mostly frequent the Middle Umbra, but they also have ways of visiting the moon. It's explicitly the same 'version' of the moon that the Apollo Program and/or VEs visited.

                    Werecats seem to be less averse to high technology than werewolves are, but I don't think I've read any in-character opinions about technomancers. However, I get the impression that werecats view the Moon as a holy place and would see the Darkside Moonbase as a hideous defilement. Luna's spirit court seem to feel that way, from what little I've seen written about it. Also, the werecats most likely to be encountered in space are the werecheetahs, who are super-hyper-paranoid, even towards other Bastet. They won't start fights directly, but they might get into sabotage and they have spirit allies. (Those are about the only non-cheetah friends they have.)

                    And then there are the wererats. They tunnel through a lot of the Umbra, including the Deep Umbra, although their hangouts are probably far away from the planets and Horizon Realms. But they hate the Weaver more than the Wyrm, hate humans or at least don't value human life at all, and are mostly batshit insane. They will almost certainly be implacably hostile no matter what they see VEs fighting against. Honestly, wererats are a walking advertisement for the "Reality Deviants are an existential threat to humanity and reality" argument.
                    Last edited by Erinys; 08-27-2020, 03:13 PM.


                    I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                    Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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