Help with NPC concept: Respected garou is getting too old and became senile.

[Rucun]

Im planning a chronicle where a very old silent strider appears in town. He is over 80 years old, a rank 3 galliard, very well respected and known for being one of the best investigators ever from the silent striders. On a first meet he seems fine enough, he is not as powerful as before, but looks mentally sound. Except this is a mistake, it takes time to notice, but he has alzheimer. Maybe because he is always moving this is not always noticed by the others garou he meet.


He knows he is old (althought he doens't know he is getting senile) so he decided to kill vampires, since it's something he can still do just fine specially when he catches them off-guard during the day. He will ask the PCs to assist him on a investigation since they know the region better, but it will soon be clear that he is too senile. How would the other septs react to this? It's pretty obvious he should have gone throught the rite of the winter wolf decades ago, but now he cannot really comprehend this. He think that he is just a little slower now, but don't realize/accept he is mentally unstable.

Could a garou be forced to undergo the rite of winter wolf against his will? If not, what are the alternatives?

He is a danger to himself and pherhaps even the garou nation as a whole, he keeps forgetting things, but still remembers important lore and could reveal important info by mistake, he has a strong fetish the could be stole from him, etc.

If the rite of winter wolf can be used against a unwilling garou, would they try to capture him to undergo the rite, or just plainly kill him? He is very old, but knows powerful gifts and there is always a small change he can kill at least one garou with a trick or luck. Would the sept try to get him alive to the ritual, or feel like it's safer to kill him without the rite? Im interested what kind of opnion the other npcs of the sect could have.


Im trying to make it a chronicle about helping the old garou coming to terms with his life and the need to end it, or instead a difficult situation where they have to kill a honorable garou who don't really understand the situation and thinks the PCs have turned on him.

[heinrich]

Well, Alzheimer is an illness, so normal rules of ageing as per the Player's Guide 2nd edition, don't apply. Garou can become well over one hundred, so an 80 years old garou shouldn't have gone through the Winter Wolf Rite "decaded ago".

I don't think the Rite can be acted out against the persons will, especially since suicide is a essential part of the Rite.

Forcing a situation in which the garou will die in combat is an option, but difficult if the garou is a keen observer and investigator.
Also, a spirit with appropriate charms might grant the garou clarity for a limited time, so he can enact the Winterwolf Rite with the sept. If it is a longer plot, the garou might need to find special astral beings to do so, which can be found only after extensive umbral quests (or with the Stargazer Quest "Astral Travel"). This goes a bit into Mage territory, but still.

Since it is an illness, there might be a (customized) cure for the garou. The Asklepios Rite of the Children of Gaia (iirc) could provide clues as to how to treat the afflicted garou. It might be lessen the drama and impact of the illness if it became cureable with enough effort. But, might open up new drama when garou start to discuss for whom they make the effort and for whom not. Don't suffer thy people to tend thy sickness - is still garou culture. But, when Mari fell into a coma, the Black Furies were kind of glad, that they could keep her alive on King Albrechts explicit wishes without having to discuss the Litany implications.

An ambush murder is still an option. As only Adren in Rank he can't use Bridge Walker yet, so he has to rely on his speed to escape, which is considerable as a Silent Strider. Still, a pack winning the initiative, forcing him into Lupus with a Moon sign Talen and then inflict agg damage with a well performed pack tactic or simply rake attacks be three to four assailants will send him to Incapacitated quickly. Unless the powerful fetish mentioned prohibits this.
Also, tricking him into an lockable room and then attacking him is a possibility. 'Spirit Knife' makes Theurges of Fostern rank powerful attackers. And there is always "cutting the throat in the sleep"...

[Rucun]

Well, Alzheimer is an illness, so normal rules of ageing as per the Player's Guide 2nd edition, don't apply. Garou can become well over one hundred, so an 80 years old garou shouldn't have gone through the Winter Wolf Rite "decaded ago".

I don't think the Rite can be acted out against the persons will, especially since suicide is a essential part of the Rite.

Forcing a situation in which the garou will die in combat is an option, but difficult if the garou is a keen observer and investigator.
Also, a spirit with appropriate charms might grant the garou clarity for a limited time, so he can enact the Winterwolf Rite with the sept. If it is a longer plot, the garou might need to find special astral beings to do so, which can be found only after extensive umbral quests (or with the Stargazer Quest "Astral Travel"). This goes a bit into Mage territory, but still.

Since it is an illness, there might be a (customized) cure for the garou. The Asklepios Rite of the Children of Gaia (iirc) could provide clues as to how to treat the afflicted garou. It might be lessen the drama and impact of the illness if it became cureable with enough effort. But, might open up new drama when garou start to discuss for whom they make the effort and for whom not. Don't suffer thy people to tend thy sickness - is still garou culture. But, when Mari fell into a coma, the Black Furies were kind of glad, that they could keep her alive on King Albrechts explicit wishes without having to discuss the Litany implications.

An ambush murder is still an option. As only Adren in Rank he can't use Bridge Walker yet, so he has to rely on his speed to escape, which is considerable as a Silent Strider. Still, a pack winning the initiative, forcing him into Lupus with a Moon sign Talen and then inflict agg damage with a well performed pack tactic or simply rake attacks be three to four assailants will send him to Incapacitated quickly. Unless the powerful fetish mentioned prohibits this.
Also, tricking him into an lockable room and then attacking him is a possibility. 'Spirit Knife' makes Theurges of Fostern rank powerful attackers. And there is always "cutting the throat in the sleep"...

Im confused by your first sentence. Don't the rules about ageing say that it begins (system wise) at 70 years old? So yes, garous can live much more, but they have a chance to lose attributes every year after their 70s. So 80 is actually a lot. Also, don't old age make a garou more prone to illness?


About a spirit giving clarity to the old garou, this is a interesting possibility I didn't think about.


About attacking him, could they lose renown for it? Because even with all the justifications, he was still a faithully serving Gaia. Could someone try to frame the murderes for it. Would a "knife in the sleep" make them lose more renown than a actual fight (even if a ambush) ?

[heinrich]

I'm confused by your first sentence. Don't the rules about ageing say that it begins (system wise) at 70 years old? So yes, garous can live much more, but they have a chance to lose attributes every year after their 70s. So 80 is actually a lot. Also, don't old age make a garou more prone to illness?

I re-read the rules, and you are right, the rolls start with the first winter solstice after reaching age 70. And the rolls are only modified by age and Battle Scars.

So, assuming no Battle Scars for the Adren, according to the rules there would be only a loss of Perception be a mental trait that the Silent Strider is at risk for, till age 77 (Wits) or age 82 (Int).
And risk only means there is another roll (that may be modified by a permanent Gnosis expenditure). So, if a player always would spend the permanent Gnosis (and then spend XP to raise it again), the chance that no loss happens is 56%.

I would argue, that old age only indirectly affects the risk of becoming sick. The Stamina trait would be the indicator for that. So, Stamina is a trait that might be lowered by age and therefore making a garou more prone to sickness.

About attacking him, could they lose renown for it? Because even with all the justifications, he was still a faithully serving Gaia. Could someone try to frame the murderes for it. Would a "knife in the sleep" make them lose more renown than a actual fight (even if a ambush) ?

Well, a duel would be the most honourable way. The master of challenge can't really refuse this, if the sept all have the opinion that the garou must die. But the Strider could think all the garou went crazy (since he doesn't see that their challenge has merit) and therefore avoid the duel by fleeing. So, for practical reasons this option might not be chosen, especially if it failed before...
An ambush is less honourable, but if the sept decides the Strider has to die, it is an execution, and that might be okay. But, is it wise? It offers the possibility that perfectly healthy garou are wounded or killed by a mentally sick garou. Killing him in his sleep would eliminate this danger, but it would dishonour the sept or the executioner likewise.

Best approach would be to bring the current events for the Moot gathering and tell stories of the Adrens misdeeds. This brings the matter into the public and might force the Adren to reevaluate his own world view. Especially if he has lucid moments, he might be convinced to perform the winter wolf Rite himself.

[Black Fox]

What Garou will do in this case depends on the tribe and sept. The Rite of the Winter Wolf should be seen as one way that the Litany (Do Not Suffer Thy People to Tend Thy Sickness) is followed, not the only way. That rite seems to be a dignified way to allow a Garou to end their life (at least for those tribes that follow it, W20 states some tribes that perform the rite and other tribes that don't). I don't think it can be done with an unwilling Garou as the Garou herself must do the deed. However, I can see certain tribes and septs employing immense social pressure on someone to do it to the point that the Garou reluctantly agrees. So it all depends on what you mean by "unwilling".

But even if the Garou in question does not agree, reluctantly or not, to participate in the rite, does not mean that other Garou do not have recourse. In W20's Litany description it explains in ages past Garou would rip apart aged, infirmed, or motally wounded Garou. That doesn't sound like a rite. It sounds like the sept simply decided to take matters into their own hands. And we have other examples where some Garou took it upon themselves to enforce this portion of the Litany. The Valkenburg Foundation sourcebook showed Red Talons willing to use violence against other Garou in order to kill Lunatics because of this portion of the Litany. Whether or not these alternative methods of killing these Garou have their own rites is up to you as ST.

So how a sept handles this situation really depends on its members. It depends on their tribe. And it depends on the type of sept. A sept whose caern is devoted to Calm or Healing would act very differently than one whose caern is Rage or Sacrifice.

There is not one answer for the entire Garou Nation. Every tribe and sept will interpret the Litany differently. And even within one sept, this may be controversial and the sept extremely divided.