The official Werewolf: Heart of the Forest thread (was: Found This Game On Steam...)

[Wolf-Man]

Werewolf the Apocalypse : Heart of the Forest..... https://www.bing.com/search?q=werewo...CBB348F81B7B54

I installed the demo for it and played. For what it was, I thought it was cool and effective. Would love to see more stuff like this being made.

[TheDreamApologist]

It's been out for a few days. It's not very long as well.

[Haquim]

It's a good game, a narrative adventure that helps illustrating what becoming a werewolf means. Personally I think it's better than what has been done for VtM with "Night Road".

I also don't think it's too short at all. While it's true playing the whole adventure takes 2 hours and half at most, there's a huge amount of possible paths you can choose so replayability is high.

I for example completed my first run as a philodox of the Black Furies, but I could have chosen several different paths as well.

P.S.

The opinion these polish werewolves have of the Fenrir is not exactly flattering. I wonder if the way the Get of Fenris is described is going to be the one chosen for W5. Personally I hope not.

[CTPhipps]

I'm very surprised by the implications for V5.

* The Final Battle or Apocalypse has already been fought.

* The Get of Fenris may be extinct and the Garou act like they were all assholes or Wyrm corrupted at the end.

* The Garou seem to have been mostly killed off and the survivors can't educate or find all the Lost Cubs.

* The Black Furies, Children of Gaia, Glass Walkers, and Bone Gnawers are still around.

The opinion these polish werewolves have of the Fenrir is not exactly flattering. I wonder if the way the Get of Fenris is described is going to be the one chosen for W5. Personally I hope not.

The Get of Fenris are German and Russian primarily with a lot of people overlooking the latter.

I can't imagine under any circumstances other than Polish Get themselves having a positive opinion of them.

I mean if Mongolian Get of Fenris existed, it would be a trifecta of things they did not like.

[heinrich]

The Get of Fenris are German and Russian primarily with a lot of people overlooking the latter.

So, Scandinavia, like Norway, Finland, Sweden and Denmark, as well as the baltic states, don't house Fenrir?
Nah, Get of Fenris existed long before in the region that is now poland, and should have septs there. It is true that Poland suffered aggression from east (Russia) and west (Germany) and for some time wasn't even a country found on a map, because Germany and Russia just divided the land amongst themselves.....
But, Get should have been on both sides of these conflicts. Their septs should predate this last century history by far.

[CTPhipps]

So, Scandinavia, like Norway, Finland, Sweden and Denmark, as well as the baltic states, don't house Fenrir?
Nah, Get of Fenris existed long before in the region that is now poland, and should have septs there. It is true that Poland suffered aggression from east (Russia) and west (Germany) and for some time wasn't even a country found on a map, because Germany and Russia just divided the land amongst themselves.....
But, Get should have been on both sides of these conflicts. Their septs should predate this last century history by far.

I almost added them but thought it ruined the joke that the Polish Garou REALLY hate the Get for some reason in this game. Like, every time they're brought up, someone shits on them.

I feel like they either fell to the Wyrm or the Polish locals just really have a long running grudge against them.

[heinrich]

Well, I likes the Demo of the game, haven't bought the full version.
But I can't say I like the implications for the W5 Setting.

[Haquim]

I'm very surprised by the implications for V5.

* The Final Battle or Apocalypse has already been fought.

* The Get of Fenris may be extinct and the Garou act like they were all assholes or Wyrm corrupted at the end.

* The Garou seem to have been mostly killed off and the survivors can't educate or find all the Lost Cubs.

* The Black Furies, Children of Gaia, Glass Walkers, and Bone Gnawers are still around.

The Get of Fenris are German and Russian primarily with a lot of people overlooking the latter.

I can't imagine under any circumstances other than Polish Get themselves having a positive opinion of them.

I mean if Mongolian Get of Fenris existed, it would be a trifecta of things they did not like.

• That's obviously not the case. It's mentioned that a lot of the Garou from the nineties died, in the best case scenario the Apocalypse would have been a way more traumatic event than that
• The Get of Fenris get defined as a group of white power supremacists "some of them worked for Hitler!", the dislike towards them seems mainly political
• A lot of Garou died, and finding lost cubs may be a theme of the new edition, but the "cub" in this game is found easily enough...
• Obviously, but that doesn't mean the other tribes are not, also the Red Talons are still around and are said "to be the tribe of the Garou that are born lupus... which I honestly think is a mistake from the developers of the game

[heinrich]

The Get of Fenris get defined as a group of white power supremacists "some of them worked for Hitler!", the dislike towards them seems mainly political

Well, this doesn't do the tribe justice. But can be the (unfunded) opinion of a person in the game.

The intro comic 1st Edition TB of the Get was bad.

• Sure, there were Get in Nazi Germany and they and their kin were German citizens. But as were Fianna, Sliver Fangs, Black Furies, Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers. And, members of all these tribes were just as likely to be members of the Nazi party, to escape the scrutiny of their neighbours, or because they were in favour of the easy answers the Nazi provided to fight poverty and economic hardship.
• Get of Fenris are seen as hands on kind of culture. And while no garou should be able to be an active serviceman in any army, I can see how in WWII or other active war zones garou would mask themselves as soldiers to move around. And as such, I can see why the would carry automatic rifles. But, I find it unfortunate to see a get of fenris firing with machine guns in crinos. They should be the kind of warrior who kills when he sees the white in in enemies eyes. Sure, there is spear throwing. My point is, killing by automatic fire isn't Get of Fenris like.

And, I feel these characteristics are still carried over...

[Helur]

The Get were described as ''garou supremacists'' and by Bone Gnawers, Furies and CoG at the moment. Of course they were described as fascist werewolves. They are three of the tribes that have less and less in common with the get.

If I can say my opinion, being very down to earth: The get of Fenris are a militaristic, might makes right, warrior tribe based on war-meritocracy and glory.



Seriously guys, what do we expect?

All tribes to support green activism and lgbt? You seriously expect this kind of tribe to be inclusive and democratic or what? They worship body culture and war, songs about might and glorious heroes who kills the enemy giving no quarter.

There is NO LOGICAL WAY to make them socially acceptable right now, c'mon.



The Get are obviously NOT a nazi tribe, but it's more than logical that in the world of darkness many of them , with this kind of tribal mindset, would try to use bio-nazi or far right green movements as weapon or even join such ideologism. Also, it's normal that tribes like the cog or bone gnawers or black furyes see them as garou-supremacist: they respect strength, they have a tribal system based on brute force.



Plus, it could be a local reality, maybe in poland many of them are crypto-fascist like.

I really like the brutal depiction of the Get in the game:

- It looks really local

- it shows that the garou are not ''the good guys''

- we clearly understand that being an eco-terrorist could looks scary and wrong

- If it's ok to have radical genocidal red talons I don't see the problem in a supremacist-garou tribe (garou supremacists. Not white supremacists garou. Which would be...cringe , stupid and nonsense)

- Look outside the window the modern day world: pollution, mass deforestation, cementification, wars. Do you think that a tribe like the Get would NOT fall into extremism once more?

- RAGE: rage makes you do bad stuff. Seriously bad stuff and choices. It can makes you a radical motherfu.



Honestly guys there is no way to exonerate the Get from the ''fascist stereotype'', and honestly it's ok like that because otherwise we would have a revised tribe made up by illogical concepts and paradoxes. There is no way to exonerate even the less radical Get :

in the modern day world, every Get just because of his culture and the fact that the'' glorify war and mighty'' is one of the most solid point of the tribe, will be identified by the vast majority of people as a fascist.

There is litterally no way to avoid this without changing totally the tribe from its roots.

We all agree that the Get are not ''neo nazi''(at least the majority) but the thing it's deep in their own culture, which can be identified easily as crypto fascist by an avarage person.

We just need to be honest here.

[heinrich]

With all the text formatting in your post, Helur, it is really hard to quote you...

It might be okay to characterise the Get in the context of the game, but if it isn't clear it is a mis-service to the tribe and WtA as a whole. The game probably is first contact for players and might shape the view many have of the game. Not quite like Marvel movies shaped the Marvel comics characters in the public mind, but to a lesser degree.

Also, they aren't fascists. Fascism, according to the wikipedia page, is "far-right, authoritarian ultranationalismcharacterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy".

Within Get culture, there are local Jarls ruling their septs. Unlike outer tribes, there isn't a regular meeting, secret or overt governing body, Argh Righ (High King) or sub-tribe (Houses of Silver Fangs). And while the legitimation of the Jarl is usually his combat prowess he or she usually doesn't oppress opposition, but faces opposers in a challenge.

Garou septs (and tribes) in their essence should be republics, from greek res publica (or latin), meanin "public affair". That what the Moot, the cornerstone of the local garou society is all about. Discussing all matters in the public of the group. The Jarl decides, and if he tells you to shut up, that is his right. But Get aren't different to any other tribe in this regard.

Songs about might and glory are well known to all tribes. And sure, the Get have a body cult, and an ideology that furthers that only a strong body can hold a strong mind and soul, but they share that with the Fianna. And willpower, stamina, fortitude are all virtues of the Get, too. War, on the other hand, is nothing Get dwell in, battle is.

War implies goals, militaristic targets and objectives. That's Silver Fang and Shadowloard turf. For the Get there is an enemy and they rush into battle, pure and simple. It is an exercise of their culture and display of their strength and willpower alike. Sure, Get have in the past fought to conquer land, still they aren't the one's who plan campaigns and move pieces on a map to strategise. They are the ones who get drunk, proclaim that they will take some caern from the Fianna and set sail the next morning to do so, just because....

And they are no more no less supremacists then other garou. I mean they behave better towards their kinfolk, than let's say Shadow Lords in general do. They also have respect for all people that accomplish things through hard work. They have their huge emphasis on heritage and therefore I would guess that up until the early nineties Gets who were black or latino or asian from one side of their parents were still outsiders in their tribes and were also probably lacking support from these sides of their families, for they wouldn't be kinfolk (to the Get) and therefore have little influence over their Get relatives. But by 2020, mainly in North America, this might have changed - which might be awkward for the Gets in Europe.
Point is, they don't have a inherent "we are better then them"-part in their tribal culture that is bigger than any other tribes. I mean, Silver Fangs, Black Furies, Red Talons, look how they restrict tribal access.

So, what is true for the Get is true for a handful of other tribes, too.

[Helur]

With all the text formatting in your post, Helur, it is really hard to quote you...

Of course they are not fascist, but they can be easily be perceived as fascist.
But I honestly disagree when you say that they are no more no less supremacists then other garou.*
If you have thousands of years of warrior culture and militaristic heritage, you think about yourself as the final warrior, and as a warrior you need intolerance to fight your war. We can't seriously think that all the get could be balanced people who overthing about the honorable meaning of war and battle.
During a war you fight, you kill, you die. It's hars, and harser will be the way you will be raised up in your tribe, which is prone to battle and bloodshed more than the others.
Plus, rage.
Rage it's a central point. Because garou are driven often by rage and they did stupid shit because of it, and they will continue to do it. Rage can lead you to radical and extreme decisions, same for tribal leaders and youngsters.
*I agree when you say that there are other extreme-like tribes like Fianna, Shadow , Fangs or Talons.
But those tribes (talons excluded) have other things other than battle as tribal focus.
The Get have an explosive mix of tribal focuses: strength is the highest virtue, battle is the only way, domination over the weak, cultural-heritage proudness, the strongest leads.

Again I'm not saying they are fascist.
I'm saying that with such a mix of focuses and tribal heritage, is hard to perceive them as the good protectors of nature and they should not be perceived as the good guys.
They are the harsh embodiment of fenris and the most ferocious aspect of Gaia.
I think it's realistic if some of them will use again some far right movements, it's simply really logical and realistic. I'm not saying everyone of them should do it.
We are living an enviromental crisis, I strongly think that such tribe would be really radical and dangerous and it would be natural to mistake them as eco-fascio-terrorists, especially from the point of view of other tribes like the children or black furies.

Sorry Heinrich if my words are not really clear. My first lenguage is not english and it's kinda hard for me to discuss difficult things like this one.

[Haquim]

Most of the Fenrir think of themselves as heroes. They consider their duty to challenge those they consider weak and in the past that led to wars for the control of Caerns, the conflict with the Fianna and the aggression towards the Balam den realms in the Amazon.

Most Fenrir are not fascists and couldn’t care less about human politics but it’s easy to see how those on the receiving end of Fenrir aggression may characterize them as fascist warmongers.

As for the game, there are no Silver Fangs but there is one Siberakh Garou

[heinrich]

Helur English isn't my first language either. But I don't think we are misunderstanding each other.

On the topic of Fenrirs, I don't think domination over the weak is a goal of the Fenrir, or a virtue in their culture. In contrast they would try to train and strengthen those who are allied with them or trying to live in their vicinity. Also, the way of live and willingness to fend for oneself and one's family is what Get respect. Weakness is in the eye of the beholder, though. Kinfolk and humans will never be as strong as garou, still they are worthy partners for procreation. And a farmer who grows his own food is still more worthy to the Gets than a mercenary who swallows steroids to stay in shape and relies on complicated modern weaponry.

Also, the Fenrir don't need to be intolerant. Some centuries ago, they might have been so many and not enough Wyrm minions around to quell their thirst for battle, but not today. Wyrm minions are present for the Get to find and battle - no need for conflict with other tribes or other breeds anymore (except the breeds who are mistakenly seen as wyrmish).

There is the optional tribal flaw that there is one thing (or group of people I guess) Get of Fenris are intolerant against.

[Helur]

Helur English isn't my first language either. But I don't think we are misunderstanding each other.

On the topic of Fenrirs, I don't think domination over the weak is a goal of the Fenrir, or a virtue in their culture. In contrast they would try to train and strengthen those who are allied with them or trying to live in their vicinity. Also, the way of live and willingness to fend for oneself and one's family is what Get respect. Weakness is in the eye of the beholder, though. Kinfolk and humans will never be as strong as garou, still they are worthy partners for procreation. And a farmer who grows his own food is still more worthy to the Gets than a mercenary who swallows steroids to stay in shape and relies on complicated modern weaponry.

Also, the Fenrir don't need to be intolerant. Some centuries ago, they might have been so many and not enough Wyrm minions around to quell their thirst for battle, but not today. Wyrm minions are present for the Get to find and battle - no need for conflict with other tribes or other breeds anymore (except the breeds who are mistakenly seen as wyrmish).

There is the optional tribal flaw that there is one thing (or group of people I guess) Get of Fenris are intolerant against.

There is a huge difference between what the fenrir don't need to be and what the fenris would most likely, realistically, be.
Again, not saying they should or would be the nazi tribe.
But I always played, storytelled, read them in this way as I described and we all have always enjoyed them at the table because of their merits and flaws exaclty like any othe tribe.

Maybe is totally our way, we like the game really ''raw'' with very human characters, radical stuff included.