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The acceptance of Awakened Kinfolk

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  • #16
    Theoretically you qualify for things like Rank 1 Gifts (that will cost so much you'll never buy them at 15 to 25 XP per Gift.... you'll buy Spheres and Arete instead), and buying Kinfolk specific Backgrounds. But yeah, for double dipping it's pretty much a non-issue. It's probably why the games never tried to stomp out kin-mages like they have for other crossover-mages.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      Theoretically you qualify for things like Rank 1 Gifts (that will cost so much you'll never buy them at 15 to 25 XP per Gift.... you'll buy Spheres and Arete instead), and buying Kinfolk specific Backgrounds. But yeah, for double dipping it's pretty much a non-issue. It's probably why the games never tried to stomp out kin-mages like they have for other crossover-mages.


      Honestly I think the Ghoul stamping is more a matter of setting than any mechanical benefit because yeah.. I can spend 25 xp on a level one discipline.. or.. Arete 4? or a level 3 non trad sphere? Really Ghoul mages being a problem exist to justify blood mages.. Most specifically the Tremere but really any really if a mage Rogue Ghoul would sort of invalidate much of that.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Corvinus View Post
        In an upcoming Mage game a player wants to play a awakened kinfolk (Related to the Fianna). He also wants to stay in contact with the family, where his father is a Garou. But they do not like mages for various reasons. How should the relationships with other Garou be presented? Especially with the father.
        Is the father an NPC? How much will the group - all thePCs - interact with werewolves?

        Generally, none of the splats are supposed to like each other. That gamers tend to run cross splat groups like they are WoD superfriends is not something the games are designed to support, thematically or mechanically.

        Having a mage for a son (or a werewolf for a father) could easily function as a Dark Secret (1 pt flaw), something they both try to keep secret. It might also come with a Enemy (1-4 pt flaw), someone among the werewolves who sees the mage as a problem and wants to eliminate them.

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        • #19
          My honest opinion is that most werewolves wouldn't understand the difference between True Magic and Rites and would react poorly if you tried to explain it.

          Except for Uktena and a handful of high gnosis Theruges of other tribes who'd understand it completely and then tell you to keep it to yourself because most other werewolves are idiots.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #20
            Kinfolk are lesser affected by the Curse. There is no mechanic given and the rules for the long term effects of the Curse from 2nd Edition have been absent since revised edition.
            As of W20, any kinfolk can become a garou through a belated first change. "Scent of the true form" doesn't allow to detect the difference between a pre-change cub and a kinfolk anymore.

            That said, Kinfolk having Numina (Psi, True Faith) aor allowing Kinfolk to learn Numina (Hedge Magic, Rites) is a retcon brought about by "Kinfolk - A Breed apart", it is definitely different in "Kinfolk - Unsung Heros". In my opinion, the authors liked to make playing a Kinfolk in a troupe with werewolves more appealing. I don't like it. Either one plays a Werewolf in a Werewolf game or one plays a Kinfolk in a Kinfolk-Chronicle, which can be fun in its own right.

            No more crying about all the kinfolk being wrongfully killed in dark ages witch hunts, if they were in fact witches.

            Still, garou see it as their holy duty to fight the good fight. They are chosen, kinfolk are not. Letting them take part is nothing garou lightly do. The Dies Ultimae Camp of the Glass Walkers is exceptional in their viewpoint on this matter.

            "Sense the unnatural" as well as "Sense magic" could reveal the difference between hedge magic and Magick. Not sure if these gifts are still around in revised. In any case, the power of True Magick will be obvious at some point.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
              As of W20, any kinfolk can become a garou through a belated first change. "Scent of the true form" doesn't allow to detect the difference between a pre-change cub and a kinfolk anymore.

              That said, Kinfolk having Numina (Psi, True Faith) aor allowing Kinfolk to learn Numina (Hedge Magic, Rites) is a retcon brought about by "Kinfolk - A Breed apart", it is definitely different in "Kinfolk - Unsung Heros".
              Um...

              1) W20 Kinfolk can't become a Garou. W20 limits the ability to tell the difference between pre-Change Garou and Kinfolk. So a character raised as Kinfolk might have a late change, but they were always a Garou.

              2) Unsung Heroes 100% allows Kinfolk to learn Numina. A Breed Apart specifically includes the Numina that were first introduced in Unsung Heroes.

              No more crying about all the kinfolk being wrongfully killed in dark ages witch hunts, if they were in fact witches.
              I'm pretty sure the wrongness of the witch hunts is still valid even if some Kinfolk have Numina.

              "Sense the unnatural" as well as "Sense magic" could reveal the difference between hedge magic and Magick. Not sure if these gifts are still around in revised. In any case, the power of True Magick will be obvious at some point.
              Both Gifts (which are in Revised and W20) are explicitly meant to be vague about such things, with only very good rolls and a lot of experience on behalf of the character being able to understand the differences. It's not impossible for them to allow an experienced Garou that studies human magic to sense what they're dealing with, but Garou that don't already have enough understanding of magic and the occult to have an understanding of it coming in significantly different forms aren't going to just know via Gifts.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                1) W20 Kinfolk can't become a Garou. W20 limits the ability to tell the difference between pre-Change Garou and Kinfolk. So a character raised as Kinfolk might have a late change, but they were always a Garou.
                Yes.
                What other means to discern between pre-change garou and kinfolk are there in W20?

                If there aren't any, what's the practical difference?

                Sure, only a person who was a garou but would be believed to be a kinfolk can have a first change. But any person believed to be a kinfolk could be such a person, so by that logic any kinfolk could become a garou, for only the ST knows who is secretly a garou and who isn't.


                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                2) Unsung Heroes 100% allows Kinfolk to learn Numina. A Breed Apart specifically includes the Numina that were first introduced in Unsung Heroes.
                True.
                I wasn't talking about the mechanics, but that was unclear from what I wrote. Sure, they are present in "Unsung Heroes", Numina as well as gifts, no Rites, though.

                I was talking about the level of acceptance of Numina within garou society as well as the number of kinfolk with abilities within the kinfolk communities as a whole and how open these are practised towards the garou.


                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                I'm pretty sure the wrongness of the witch hunts is still valid even if some Kinfolk have Numina.
                Well, as humans who think of ourselves as open minded and modern, true. But even today there are people who think that certain characteristics about another person are wrong and should be in itself a crime.
                In the Dark Ages this isn't any different.

                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                Both Gifts (which are in Revised and W20) are explicitly meant to be vague about such things, with only very good rolls and a lot of experience on behalf of the character being able to understand the differences. It's not impossible for them to allow an experienced Garou that studies human magic to sense what they're dealing with, but Garou that don't already have enough understanding of magic and the occult to have an understanding of it coming in significantly different forms aren't going to just know via Gifts.
                I think it depends on how different the vague feelings from the gifts are, when reacting to true magick as opposed to hedge magic. Quite possibly the paradigm of the mage play into these feelings as well as a lot of different flavours of magic.

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                • #23
                  Thank you! The answers are very helpful. Merits are used (and thus Kinfolk.)

                  Well, the player didn't say anything about being interested in gifts and similar stuff. The Garou Lore will influence his paradigm (He goes for Independent Dreamspeaker), but not more. I think that is not even possible according to the rules, because it requires Gnosis (Which mages cannot have).

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                  • #24
                    I'd more ask a question about how the Kinfolk developed their magical gift, and who or what instructed them and helped shape them. Was it a mage or a theurge, a spirit or their avatar?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by heinrich View Post

                      No more crying about all the kinfolk being wrongfully killed in dark ages witch hunts, if they were in fact witches.
                      That ship has sailed if you're part of a network of werewolf henchmen.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by babi_gog View Post
                        I'd more ask a question about how the Kinfolk developed their magical gift, and who or what instructed them and helped shape them. Was it a mage or a theurge, a spirit or their avatar?
                        Not sure if 'Kinfolk - A Breed Apart' addresses this. In 'Kinfolk: Unsung Heros' it seemed that Kinfolk with psychic abilitiesare born with them, just like human psychics are. Gifts are rare among Kinfolk, with probably not more than one a Kinfolk will ever have.
                        Kinfolk could learn Rites and teach them and this was occasionally a way to preserve knowledge of a Rite for a generation. They could however not enact them. That is unless they were a mage and used the Rite as a focus.

                        With changes to these rules as of 'Kinfolk - A Breed Apart' I have no idea...

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                        • #27
                          K-ABA didn't actually change any of that. There are a selection of Rites in the book (some of which aren't for Kinfolk to learn, but for Garou to help maintain Kinfolk communities), and the Kinfolk oriented Rites are more for flavor than anything else, as they operate more on reinforcing Garou indoctrination of Kinfolk values than any actual spirit magic (a Kinfolk subjected to one can frequently just spend a WP point to ignore it to represent overcoming Garou teachings). The few that might actually impact the spirit world are if the ST allows, and probably also require the Gnosis Merit to do anything (such as helping make the local spirits more friendly and likely to look out for trouble).

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                          • #28
                            W20 Kinfolk has Kinfolk able to learn level 1 and 2 rites (page 63) and level 1 gifts (page 65). This means an Awakened Kinfolk has to use mage powers to do things resembling the Garou powers they don't have access to.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                              Not sure if 'Kinfolk - A Breed Apart' addresses this. In 'Kinfolk: Unsung Heros' it seemed that Kinfolk with psychic abilitiesare born with them, just like human psychics are. Gifts are rare among Kinfolk, with probably not more than one a Kinfolk will ever have.
                              Kinfolk could learn Rites and teach them and this was occasionally a way to preserve knowledge of a Rite for a generation. They could however not enact them. That is unless they were a mage and used the Rite as a focus.

                              With changes to these rules as of 'Kinfolk - A Breed Apart' I have no idea...
                              My question wasn't a rules based one, more a character and story one. IF the Kinfolk learned from the Theurge how to use their magik then it would likely look very much like rites and gifts, and might not be noticed as that strange - apart from them being adept at it, and thus likely to be a good breeding partner. However if they learn from a mage, then it is likely to mix less well with the garou lore and they may not be accepted as much.

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                              • #30
                                My best guess would be, that the mentor/teacher would be another, more experienced kinfolk. I mean, if the kinfolk kids shows signs of true magick there would probably travel the word amongst kinfolk and those rare kinfolk mages would seek the family out.

                                Hedge magic kinfolk users might be more numerous, and since there probably isn't a birth predisposition needed I guess the character would seek out one of these to petition to be his student. I would guess that their practices are flavoured by tribal tradition and would in their practices be somewhat similar to what a Theurge does. Meaning, that it also is kind of in tune with Dreamspeaker tradition. So, centric to spirits or the spirit community to power the effects of the hedge magic.

                                Psychics are born that way, and possibly have to develop their powers on their own, but if other psychic kinfolk get the info, they might seek out another and discuss their abilities and experiences.

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