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The acceptance of Awakened Kinfolk

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  • Corvinus
    started a topic The acceptance of Awakened Kinfolk

    The acceptance of Awakened Kinfolk

    In an upcoming Mage game a player wants to play a awakened kinfolk (Related to the Fianna). He also wants to stay in contact with the family, where his father is a Garou. But they do not like mages for various reasons. How should the relationships with other Garou be presented? Especially with the father.

  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Erinys View Post
    Well, it's more that if they were Mages or Sorcerers, they were less likely to be killed at all.
    Totally depends. While a mage can do magick on the fly, he still needs successes to protect themselves against a mob. Sorcerers are even more vulnerable, for they need time to do most stuff.

    Originally posted by Erinys View Post
    But I'm sure Kinfolk who learn sorcery were always a minority. Regardless, murdering or torturing somebody because of their religion or inborn anything is absolutely wrong and no amount of moral relativism and "context" will make it OK.
    That is your opinion.
    I find it admirable and share it.

    However, I once read that the very idea of human life having a worth that is invaluable, is something that didn't form in the general population until the age of enlightenment. I can, when ST-ing a Dark Ages chronicle, entertain the idea that people more 'okay' with killing, especially, since death is around each corner. Each wound could get infected and kill you, easily. Sicknesses of all kinds would kill you, as well as possibly, child birth. With these way that life could end every moment and knowing people, relatives, neighbours, etc. who die senseless deaths, it is not that far fetched to get into that mindset.

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  • Erinys
    replied
    I think it's up to you whether you want the Fianna as grudging allies, domineering jerks telling the mage what to do, or distant and unhelpful. I'm assuming you don't want them attacking the character. Most Garou distrust humans with power, and rightly so considering what Mages and Sleepers have done to the Earth. Most will want a soldier instead of an independent-minded ally, but there will be exceptions who are more open-minded.

    These are the constants that won't change:
    1. Garou believe they're superior to humans.

    2. No Garou will ever allow any Mage in or even near a Caern. Not even the most trusting, open-minded, liberal werewolf wants the punishment they'll suffer if they let a Mage get near a Caern. If your character already knew the location of a Caern from before their Awakening, they will be watched. Even if your character swears they won't drain the Caern, they won't be the exception to the centuries-old rule.

    3. Some individuals in the local Garou community will probably despise your Mage no matter how well he behaves. Others may want to mate him because, as a Mage, he's closer to an equal than most Kinfolk spouses can be.

    4. Werewolves have too many enemies to fight them all, so they make priorities. Technocrats and Nephandi and Pentex are higher priorities than Mystic Mages and Vampires. Unless they approach the Caern or threaten local wolves, then they jump to the top of the list. If your character stays away from the Caern, doesn't directly harm Gaia's interests, and doesn't share Garou secrets with other Mages, they won't be the top priority target for any Garou except Red Talons. But if the Fianna don't want your character killed, they probably won't mention him to any nearby Red Talons.

    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    No more crying about all the kinfolk being wrongfully killed in dark ages witch hunts, if they were in fact witches.
    Well, it's more that if they were Mages or Sorcerers, they were less likely to be killed at all. But I'm sure Kinfolk who learn sorcery were always a minority. Regardless, murdering or torturing somebody because of their religion or inborn anything is absolutely wrong and no amount of moral relativism and "context" will make it OK. (Thankfully we don't live in a world with Fomorach and Revenants.)

    This thread might be useful to you, if you haven't already read it:
    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-shapeshifters
    Last edited by Erinys; 11-20-2020, 08:49 PM.

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  • heinrich
    replied
    It would have been my suggestion to handle "Scent of the true form" this way, in regards to pre-Change Garou, if there was more of community collaboration. In the first days of OPP there was a lot of activity in the forum and there were complete drafts on google docs for fans to comment on. W20 Changing breeds in particular did well in this regards, I think.

    In our LARP we allow the gift to directly determine garou, even pre-change. There is also a slight chance that a kid from a garou/kin or garou/human couple would be a non-kinfok human (1%). That chance is a bit bigger in kids fro a kin/kin couple (3%). And since we require the gift user to have a gift-value (basically the dice pool) of 9 to determine kinfolk, these rare human kids are often mistaken for kinfolk.

    We don't allow the gift to identify humans, though. We go with the approach that if the gift user doesn't have the necessary skill to identify a scent, the gift user is stuck with believing the being he used the gift on is, what it appears to be.

    So, if used on a wolf, with only a gift value of 4, the user would identify a garou in lupus form automatically, but otherwise would think the wolf is just a wolf. Because the gift users skill could not separate wolf-kin (gift value 9), Protean-using vampire (gift value 5), shapeshifting Pooka (gift value 5), other fera using a animal mask fetish to turn into a wolf (gift value 7).

    Usually the gift is used on humanoids, though.
    Last edited by heinrich; 11-04-2020, 05:37 AM.

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  • Black Fox
    replied
    Heinrich, I agree with you. There is a lot of text simply copied and pasted. It's not updated to reflect changes in rules, or integrated with additional rules, clarifications, and revisions added later in the same edition, much less properly edited into a new edition of the game. This isn't just an issue with W20. It affected a lot of WoD material historically.

    In my own chronicle, I use a House Rule that Scent of True Form can identify pre-Change Garou from kinfolk, but that three successes are needed. That allows the Gift to work, but sometimes leads to wrong results. (I also do not allow it to detect humans at 1 success, as simply knowing who isn't human is a lot of useful information.)

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  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by Up-to-Eleven View Post
    They moved the test to work out if a person was a Kinfolk or pre-change Garou to a Talen. Test Vial. Page 384.
    Thanks for the info.
    But, just like the "Baptism of fire" Rite, which still mentions "Scent of the true form" as a means to determine the difference, I have to believe the "Test Vial" Talen is copy and pasted from Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes (page 90).

    The Corebook states: Some tribes look at their Kinfolk as revered children, since they might Change at any time (it’s most common during puberty, but it’s not unknown for a Garou to experience the First Change during adulthood).

    I think that the W20 team, for some reason, decided that there was a need for a paradigm shift. Not sure what the reason was: focus on lost cubs, changing the kinfolk dynamic? I don't know.

    I also don't know who wrote what in the book, and who of the authors in the credits is there because of his/her texts being copy&pasted from revised core or other revised sources and who actually wrote new text passages. Or maybe the change wasn't discussed at all and who ever fact read the final version didn't realise this inconsistency. Also not sure if the changes to stepping sideways were discussed in the team...

    From my recollection, back in the day, V20 was a success but Atlanta-WW was seemingly mercy killed. Rich was asked to open his own shop, maybe softly pressured to. So, OPP was new, got the licenses and while still finding its bearing. W20 was the first big project. Sure, "V20 Companion" and "Children of the Revolution", were done in parallel. And when I got the first PDF of W20 I couldn't shake the feeling it was rushed and inconsistent and especially the new gifts and changes to setting and rules weren't really thought through. Without knowing how much he really did, I always attributed this to Stew Wilson, who took over from Ethan Skemp as lead developer.

    So, the Test Vial Talen is a nice find. But it is kinda copy&paste from an older book, like the "Baptism of fire". The wording is slightly different, but that happened probably to fit on the page better. No substantial change was made, not even changing the word "fetish" to "talen" within the description.

    Being, imo, mostly Copy&Paste is in my eye's the biggest weakness of W20.
    Last edited by heinrich; 11-03-2020, 11:21 AM.

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  • Up-to-Eleven
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    Yes.
    What other means to discern between pre-change garou and kinfolk are there in W20?

    If there aren't any, what's the practical difference?

    Sure, only a person who was a garou but would be believed to be a kinfolk can have a first change. But any person believed to be a kinfolk could be such a person, so by that logic any kinfolk could become a garou, for only the ST knows who is secretly a garou and who isn't.
    They moved the test to work out if a person was a Kinfolk or pre-change Garou to a Talen. Test Vial. Page 384.

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  • heinrich
    replied
    My best guess would be, that the mentor/teacher would be another, more experienced kinfolk. I mean, if the kinfolk kids shows signs of true magick there would probably travel the word amongst kinfolk and those rare kinfolk mages would seek the family out.

    Hedge magic kinfolk users might be more numerous, and since there probably isn't a birth predisposition needed I guess the character would seek out one of these to petition to be his student. I would guess that their practices are flavoured by tribal tradition and would in their practices be somewhat similar to what a Theurge does. Meaning, that it also is kind of in tune with Dreamspeaker tradition. So, centric to spirits or the spirit community to power the effects of the hedge magic.

    Psychics are born that way, and possibly have to develop their powers on their own, but if other psychic kinfolk get the info, they might seek out another and discuss their abilities and experiences.

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  • babi_gog
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post
    Not sure if 'Kinfolk - A Breed Apart' addresses this. In 'Kinfolk: Unsung Heros' it seemed that Kinfolk with psychic abilitiesare born with them, just like human psychics are. Gifts are rare among Kinfolk, with probably not more than one a Kinfolk will ever have.
    Kinfolk could learn Rites and teach them and this was occasionally a way to preserve knowledge of a Rite for a generation. They could however not enact them. That is unless they were a mage and used the Rite as a focus.

    With changes to these rules as of 'Kinfolk - A Breed Apart' I have no idea...
    My question wasn't a rules based one, more a character and story one. IF the Kinfolk learned from the Theurge how to use their magik then it would likely look very much like rites and gifts, and might not be noticed as that strange - apart from them being adept at it, and thus likely to be a good breeding partner. However if they learn from a mage, then it is likely to mix less well with the garou lore and they may not be accepted as much.

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  • baakyocalder
    replied
    W20 Kinfolk has Kinfolk able to learn level 1 and 2 rites (page 63) and level 1 gifts (page 65). This means an Awakened Kinfolk has to use mage powers to do things resembling the Garou powers they don't have access to.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    K-ABA didn't actually change any of that. There are a selection of Rites in the book (some of which aren't for Kinfolk to learn, but for Garou to help maintain Kinfolk communities), and the Kinfolk oriented Rites are more for flavor than anything else, as they operate more on reinforcing Garou indoctrination of Kinfolk values than any actual spirit magic (a Kinfolk subjected to one can frequently just spend a WP point to ignore it to represent overcoming Garou teachings). The few that might actually impact the spirit world are if the ST allows, and probably also require the Gnosis Merit to do anything (such as helping make the local spirits more friendly and likely to look out for trouble).

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  • heinrich
    replied
    Originally posted by babi_gog View Post
    I'd more ask a question about how the Kinfolk developed their magical gift, and who or what instructed them and helped shape them. Was it a mage or a theurge, a spirit or their avatar?
    Not sure if 'Kinfolk - A Breed Apart' addresses this. In 'Kinfolk: Unsung Heros' it seemed that Kinfolk with psychic abilitiesare born with them, just like human psychics are. Gifts are rare among Kinfolk, with probably not more than one a Kinfolk will ever have.
    Kinfolk could learn Rites and teach them and this was occasionally a way to preserve knowledge of a Rite for a generation. They could however not enact them. That is unless they were a mage and used the Rite as a focus.

    With changes to these rules as of 'Kinfolk - A Breed Apart' I have no idea...

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by heinrich View Post

    No more crying about all the kinfolk being wrongfully killed in dark ages witch hunts, if they were in fact witches.
    That ship has sailed if you're part of a network of werewolf henchmen.

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  • babi_gog
    replied
    I'd more ask a question about how the Kinfolk developed their magical gift, and who or what instructed them and helped shape them. Was it a mage or a theurge, a spirit or their avatar?

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  • Corvinus
    replied
    Thank you! The answers are very helpful. Merits are used (and thus Kinfolk.)

    Well, the player didn't say anything about being interested in gifts and similar stuff. The Garou Lore will influence his paradigm (He goes for Independent Dreamspeaker), but not more. I think that is not even possible according to the rules, because it requires Gnosis (Which mages cannot have).

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