Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

"Definition" of being Garou

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    It's your post where you quoted Heinrich. You made a typo somewhere in the quote tags.


    I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
    Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

      I disagree. Talents aren't developed by book learning, but that doesn't mean they don't take time to master. Talents require practice. The rules for many sports and other athletics are often very simple. That doesn't mean athletes don't spend a lot of time honing their skills, developing muscle memory, conditioning their bodies, and advancing their mastery. They put in a lot of training.

      I'd consider equivalents to first dot of Brawl to be high school students with several seasons of competitive wrestling, or several years of classes at their local martial arts school. They've studied the basics and mastered many of the technical skills required, but still have a long way to apply them in novel situations or developed the internal discipline and mental fortitude needed for the next rank. However, I imagine that children who have long played sports competitively in their age group have either achieved their second dot of Athletics or Brawl or are near it by the time they graduate high school. These are the people most likely to continue to compete in such sports in college and beyond.
      Ok, you are right. Rulebooks state that two dots means average, regularly trained human. I can agree with that. On the other hand I've been training boxing for about 4 years and believe me, learning how to hit, hurt your opponent not injuring yourself durong the process is easier than you think. The same I think about driving, melee or foreign languages. On the other hand my engineering skills (that means everything, from simple repairs at home to computer use) are still abysmal.

      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

      This isn't about making sure kids adapt to the new lifestyle. It's about conditioning them to accept unhesitatingly Garou cultural values so by the time they become adults, they don't question things. Being Garou is very stressful for a variety of reasons. Once exposed to the world outside the sept again, the Garou in question might come into contact with many people and experiences that could cause them to question Garou values and their commitment to them. When that happens, you want them to instinctively reject those ideas. And the way you do that is providing a comprehensive education they can go back on which answers anything that provoke doubts (or at least causes them to go, "I know we're right and they're wrong but I'm having trouble articulating why; I'll go back to my mentor and ask - I should have paid more attention as a cub&quot. You have to install it early on. If it is done too superficially, those ideals and values won't hold up under pressure or exposure to other ideas. It's why totalitarian states have the Hitler Youth, Red Pioneers, and Red Guards.

      Otherwise you run the risk of those idealistic, loyal Cliaths becoming jaded, confused Fostern who ask a lot of embarrassing questions and want to think for themselves instead of finding the answer in Garou culture. The entire culture could fall apart. Garou breeding with Garou. Tolerating man eaters. Not killing high Humanity vampires. Allowing the aged and infirm to become a burden to the sept. Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria. Real Bone Gnawer stuff.

      It is even more important to train young cubs, because those are your best bet for future fanatics who hold the line and enforce orthodoxy. Those Lost Cubs are going to bring in a lot of ideas they already hold from their human lives. They can't be entirely trusted. It's easy to see them slipping back to bad habits.
      Ok, but you're talking about fanaticism. And there are two things you can be sure about fanatics: they are completely devoid of free will and cannot think rationally. I doubt the Garou as a whole want to train a mindless army of psycho killers. If that's so I think they will be long dead. Sometimes you have to spare the wyrmspawn (if only to extract the intel). If it was like you wrote I think that there won't be Valkenburg Foundation, Monkeywrenches, Renewalists Silver Fangs camp and Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers will be no more as too weaverish. Ok, there are many fanatics among Garou, but on the other hand you have Fangs of Garm, who are more like an average Ahroun of Children of Gaia than average Get. Hell, my own Children of Gaia Ahroun is more aggressive than Garms.

      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

      I don't know if it is average, but if some Garou change when they're 10, then certainly a Rite of Passage around 14-16 provides them plenty of time to learn what they need. If a cub changes when they're 16, they probably go on their Rite of Passage later between 18-20.

      I will say, I'm now interested in running an NPC who changed when she was 10 and is now a Cliath Ahroun at age 14 just to see how the PCs react. At 14, the Cliath still has several more years of puberty left. I imagine most of my players will think that's too early to start fighting the Wyrm and it might lead to some interesting roleplay.
      I'd say it's average. I have to admit that I based my opinion on templates bios and pictures. They should be treated either as cubs ready for their Rite of Passage or Cliaths just after it. On the other hand, if we treat video games as canon in that (and I think we should, cause some members of WW acted as creators of them) then we will have one 16 years old tribeless cub, who is recognized as Cliath after the entire game (from unreleased Heart of Gaia) and 24 years old, freshly changed Garou who pass the Rite of Passage without knowing Litany, Gifts even its own Tribe (from Heart of the Forest). So that could mean we're both right. Or wrong.


      Warrior of the Rainbow
      Saint among the sinners
      Pure among the dirt
      Loser among winners

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        It's your post where you quoted Heinrich. You made a typo somewhere in the quote tags.
        Yeah, I think you're right. Still I don't know how to fix it. I can try but as I wrote, I'm Jinxed so the results can be even worse 😔.


        Warrior of the Rainbow
        Saint among the sinners
        Pure among the dirt
        Loser among winners

        Comment


        • #79
          I think I got it fixed. Sorry I had to delete them.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            I think I got it fixed. Sorry I had to delete them.
            Thanks. I think that most active users of this thread already read it so nothing to worry about.
            Last edited by Nail Eater; 11-26-2020, 07:13 AM.


            Warrior of the Rainbow
            Saint among the sinners
            Pure among the dirt
            Loser among winners

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post
              Ok, but you're talking about fanaticism. And there are two things you can be sure about fanatics: they are completely devoid of free will and cannot think rationally. I doubt the Garou as a whole want to train a mindless army of psycho killers.
              I don't want to get into a debate about semantics of the term 'fanatic'. (I think it's a complete mistake to think fanatics don't have free will or can't think rationally. They do. It's just they have dogma that they won't challenge - and dogma can be limited to certain areas, but not others.) But I will try again to explain my meaning. I am not talking about Garou slaughtering everyone. It's about preserving their culture. They have preserved a minority culture in secret among humans for thousand and thousands of years. Preserving a minority culture is not easy. Real world human cultures aren't preserved for that long. Minority cultures that exist in a sea of foreign cultures are even harder. You need to establish a lot of pride, a strong group identity, establish strict taboos and regulations that prevent your culture from being subsumed from the surrounding people. This, in part, is a reason why the Garou are a very ritualized society.

              Kinfolk culture has changed radically over time because ultimately they are part of human culture. But actual Garou culture much less so. There should be a stronger continuity with the Garou over say the last 10,000 years than there would be among their kinfolk.

              It takes work to achieve that. They need to inundate their cubs with history, stories, myth, mores, and values. That requires a certain amount of time.

              They have to turn that human runaway that just arrived into a Garou of their tribe. They don't want to run the risk of that runaway remaining a human American with 21st century values who just happens to have the powers of a Garou because that human American is going to subvert a Garou culture that's last 10,000 (even longer in some versions) with their modern American values (or their Medieval Christian values, or their Muslim Arab values or Parthian Zoroastrian values, etc.) This difficulty is probably one reason there are a lot more Ronin now than they were previously, and why half the Bone Gnawers are supposed to be "Rabble". It's a lot harder now to indoctrinate new Garou because of the mass media, information technology, and universal education.

              That runaway is already going to have certain ideas about human and political rights, the value of human life, what a fair trial means, what justice looks like, a predefine notion of honor, and many other things that will conflict with the Litany and Garou culture. The Garou need to obliterate that and reprogram that person. That means summoning enough evidence, facts, logic, arguments, etc. to overcome expected objections. The time to do that is when they are a cub, because once they pass the Rite of Passage they're now adults who can make their own decisions. So the Garou need enough time to educate someone so they can become a Garou culturally. They have to indoctrinate them.

              I think that takes a long time - more than several months or even a year.

              I've gone on at length about this, and think I've said everything I could to explain my position. Not much to add. Feel free to continue to comment, but rather than keep repeating myself and preventing the thread from moving on, I'll try to make this my last post on this thread about this subject. I think it's been a good discussion and hope people have found benefit in it. Thanks.

              Comment


              • #82
                But, depending on tribe, their culture isn't 10.000years old. Not by a long shot. And it is constantly changing.

                I totally agree that garou will try to instil the group identity and sense of belonging into any lost cubs. To some degree also to kinfolk. Besides the tribal identity, there is also the sept identity. Tribal identity takes step back, when there is a multi-tribal sept, because more concessions need to be made to make everyday life work.

                But, in the Setting there is always the mention of discrepancies on young garous' vs. old garous' world views and also that the culture became to homid-esque for the decreasing number of lupus born garou. And some tribes have multiple characteristics that are deemed fundamental (or cliché) for that tribe. Certain cubs will be welcomed into the tribe who excel at some of these characteristics, but not on all.

                A young Black Fury for example might wholeheartedly defend female and infants, and fight for each and everyone's personal freedoms but just not be into a 'wyld'-ish lifestyle. And, since all the tribes draw there inspiration from human cultures (the one's the kinfolk of these tribes stems from), the tribes have characteristics that surely were integrated into the tribe simply because they could not protect the tribes completely from the change of time and changes in human culture.

                Do garou make an effort there, sure. Are they succeeding, only kinda. So, it is fair to assume that their indoctrination of cubs is partly flawed...
                Not to mention that the cubs also could employ Subterfuge to get trough the process with some of their human society habits and believes still intact. Sure, the garou have Empathy to counter, but statistically some cubs would get away with it...

                EDIT:
                Or change their views back to a more human standard after the Rite of Passage, due to contact with humans or kinfolk.
                Last edited by heinrich; 11-26-2020, 08:08 AM.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Logic. Logic has so many facets as there are inteligent beings (not trying to offend any living creature). Just as it was written in old STs Handbook (I believe 2nd edition): Garou have fun thinking about humans who still view USA divided to North and South. Their laugh is stopped when they recall themselves War of Rage or the division between pro- and anti-Impergium Garou. And still, as heinrich wrote there are many old fashioned Garou who would likely ignite those once again.

                  As for human cultures there are many who are as old as Garou. And I don't have those 10000 years, because this culture is no more. During that time the tribes emerge from a race as a whole, Wars of Rage and War of Tears erupted, Impergium ended. And the culture has changed, influenced sometimes by Kinfolks (like Fianna by Finn McCool) sometimes even mere mortals. Look at the Sikhs, south american Indians or Aborigins, they still practice their old customs and beliefs. Ok, sometimes as a tourist trap but still. And there isn't much difference between them and Mother Larissa telling the Garou stories (censored of course) to the kids at Central Park.

                  As for indoctrination the human culture does the same, trying to instill certain values into its members. In Poland I can see it very clearly. You know "40:1" by Sabaton? About polish commander who bravely fought the Germans during WWII. There was not a word about him during all my entire education. In my country only 3 cities have a street of his name. In my hometown a renamed street has John Wayne as a patron (instead of a socialist patron, whose only flaw was that he believed in comunism before Stalin purges had started). Instead in almost any city has a street named after a field marshall, who before WWII spent the money for unpractical means of defence, and then, in September 39 bravely fled the country. I was taught that liberum veto was wrong. Then why my country was then at the peak of its power? So I think that if a cub can think freely there still be many questions about Garou culture. Not to mention that it's hard to change the point of view after 16 years of human brainwashing. What will Garou do if the cub oppose? Beat him to a pulp?


                  Warrior of the Rainbow
                  Saint among the sinners
                  Pure among the dirt
                  Loser among winners

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    I have to agree that deprogramming human values will take time, probably more than 1 year. Homid cubs are raised to believe very strongly in things like Capitalism and Monotheistic religions and Science, and a hatred of predatory animals. They won't give up these worldviews quickly or easily or willingly, even after the First Change and a glimpse of the Umbra upends their lives. And even before when most humans were polytheists or ancestor-venerators and could comprehend the existence of a goddess like Gaia, most human cultures still probably taught their kids to unquestionably assume that humans are superior and have a right to rule over and control nature, that humans are the Most Important On Earth and that animals and plants don't count as people. There are certainly human cultures that didn't teach that -- several Native American cultures for example -- and I suspect that Human-First worldview was less prevelant among hunter-gatherers and fisher-gatherers.

                    These human worldviews don't just threaten Garou customs and traditions. They are a huge threat to Gaia. They are a big reason most humans and mages want to "tame" nature and shoot dangerous animals to extinction. A Garou cannot whole-heartedly defend Gaia, and truly accept themselves as an inhuman monster, if they cling to human values.

                    The Glasswalkers may not care about driving out this human thinking, and the Red Talons don't have to, but every other tribe should be very concerned to get that poison out before it turns their cubs and cliath into traitors to Gaia. They can't afford half-measures and incomplete deprogramming.

                    The irony is that to some extent this is their own faults. IMO, if they hadn't turned the Ratkin's version of Impergium into a public slaughter-fest, if they hadn't massacred all the Gurahl and Apis who were teaching humans to respect Gaia, humans (in the WoD) would have more respect for Gaia, and less fear and hatred of nature and wild animals.
                    Last edited by Erinys; 11-26-2020, 12:05 PM.


                    I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                    Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      If a cub doesn't fall in line? Well, that's where Ronins come from if the tribe is more liberal, or how cubs die, if the tribe is more traditional.
                      Shadow Lords might employ brain washing tactics that could border on torture, i guess.
                      But other tribes won't. Specifically the Get of Fenris have a strong opinion against violence against the young. Beating them into submission is the same as raising cowards. Get have to be strong in will and choose to face the hardships of their physical training.

                      I can see extreme views regarding tradition with the young and the old. Some young will hear tales of the old times and mistake them for glorious times - aiming to be strict and traditional out of this misconception. Others will think the old ways failed because of the state the world is in now and refuse to life by these old ways.
                      Older garou also have formed stronger opinions over the years and might be extremists in one direction or the other...

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by heinrich View Post
                        If a cub doesn't fall in line?
                        I think there's a variety of responses depending on how much the cub seems to reject Garou culture. This, like all things, varies among tribes and septs.

                        The most favorable is that the cub completes the rite of passage and is accepted by his tribe. But others keep watch on him to see how he acts, and they may be quicker than usual to perform rites of Punishment, proclaim scandal for Renown loss, scapegoated for problems, forced to wait longer to be awarded renown, and use other social means to deter him from voicing or acting hostile opinions. So he could be ostracized to a certain extent. This approach may be combined with a carrot and stick approach to encourage him to "reform" his views. But the point of everything is to get him to better confirm to the group's norms.

                        The Garou might perform a "Code Red" - very coercive measures (perhaps done by others as to not implicate the sept or tribal leadership or violate the Litany) to straighten out the Garou. As Heinrich mentioned, this does not fit all tribes, but still fits a lot of them. This would involve things like physical abuse, torture (although that tribe may not define it as torture), deprivation, etc. Mental or social coercion might also be used. This could also be the exact opposite - set a lot of carrots before the cub (as long as it does not cause envy by more well behaved cubs). They might encourage an attractive kinfolk to show interest; demonstrate how being a proper Garou will lead to Gifts, powers, and aid to help them accomplish some goa, or some other tangible benefit to cooperating. Bribery, blackmail, etc. would be engaged.

                        Another option is to bump him down to the Bone Gnawers because they're already worthless. Maybe he can do some good there, and if not, the Gnawers could hardly do worse at this point, and they're already despised by the other tribes. - Give the cub a train ticket to New York and tell her to find Mother Larissa in Central Park. She'll know what to do with her.

                        A possibility is that they get sent into temporary exile and remain - essentially - a Lost Cub. The intention is that the burden of being alone will straighten the cub out, and he'll come back properly chastised. Maybe not at this sept, but another one. It's a risk because he might be killed or recruited by the BSDs, but I think any local septs will evaluate the risks before doing this.

                        Then there is the Rite of the Lone Wolf - making them Ronin. I think this, ironically, would require them to succeed on a Rite of Passage first (the sept may simply perform the Rite as opposed to sending them on an actual quest to be tested). It's a Punishment, and I don't think that can be applied to cubs. I imagine in most cases this is more the decision of the cub than other Garou. The difference between this and the previous option is that the status of Ronin is one of permanent exile.

                        Lastly, the tribe that claims the cub kills her, but again only after performing the Rite of Passage. The adventure Rite of Passage makes it clear the Litany prevents this, and any death penalties can only happen if the cub is an adult. A variation is to send the cub on a dangerous rite of passage quest in the hopes it'll kill her. I think this is the most extreme and would only be done in exceptional circumstances - the cub expressed interest in joining the BSDs, engaged in man eating, or some other capital crime.

                        I think cubs that don't fall in line are much more likely to be Lost Cubs who were found as adults rather than small children. The younger the child, the easier to indoctrinate them.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Basically I agree with Black Fox.
                          In our LARP game PCs wouldn't trust a cub to take a train to anywhere alone, especially if the cub is not behaving. They would send cliaths to take care of the transfer. In anything happened the Den Parent would be responsible.

                          Also, if there was never a Rite of Passage the Rite of Lone Wolf doesn't seem to apply. I mean one could perform it, for being a ritualised society, though. But I would call garou, who fail to have a Rite of Passage Ronin, just like those who basically had the Rite of Passage revoked by the Lone Wolf. 'Lost Cub', for me, doesn't fit once the cub has had some level of training. But I think there aren't definitions in the rules.

                          There are lone garou who live at the brink of protectorates and are tolerated by the local sept(s). This can be garou who are unwilling to life the garou lifestyle...

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            I also think that with the First Change by itself, the new cub practically NEEDS Garou society as adequate support at this point. Garou as a default aren't human (nor the wolf if their natural breedform is Lupus instead of Homid) and with their innate rage, have trouble making common ground with human society; especially after the point of First Change like I mentioned earlier. I can only see a Garou splitting off (becoming Ronin) from the Nation as a whole when they've gathered some years of natural survival skills for it to be viable.. but a cub on its own, confused entirely about its entire new found identity? ...I don't know about that.


                            Jade Kingdom Warrior

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Well, I could think of lost cubs (homid and lupus) who fend for themselves. Also with spirit or kinfolk as their sole advidors - and for more stranger origins stories with Fera or Changeling support. They would try to make sense of what they experience and what they feel and work through it.

                              That said, there is a get of fenris cub, who failed his Gnosis roll on first drinking vitae and become a ghoul and later bodyguard to the prince. After camarilla and Sabbat killed each other off he was the last one standing and is ruling as a Prince now - supposedly with Camarilla support. Iirc, it is a otherwise not noteworthy town in Ireland, where this has happened. And an anti-example of what you get, when you let Changeling Sourcebooks define WtA/VtM background

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                I thought that character was an Abomination, not a mere ghoul?
                                On the other hand, a ghoul werewolf can threate to behead disobedient vampires during the day.


                                I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                                Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X